Call and Response in Kafka Kountry

I recently expressed a limited criticism of points made in an essay.  When I began receiving responses which twisted my words or mischaracterized me, I made a decision and set up an algorithm for myself:  I would keep responding so long as my words were twisted or I was left with an insult or a mischaracterization of any kind.  I tried not to escalate, just defend.  And I would end with anyone who stopped with a neutral remark, such as let’s just drop this or this is going nowhere.  From that simple position, it became clear that unless I allowed an inaccurate statement to stand, the discussion would continue to escalate indefinitely.  The longer I stuck around, the higher the stakes became and the more I was demonized, until two other essays were born, apparently for little other reason than to demonize the person who would not back down.  It was disorienting in the extreme to wander into two essays based on the false premise that 1) I didn’t want a certain person on the site and 2) I simply refuse stubbornly to learn.  Starting from that extreme misrepresentation, hundreds of words were written, many high-minded notions expressed, all kinds of brilliant theories expounded.  It was truly Kafkaesque.  Seeing so many people buy in and participate in what was, more than anything, a trashing of me, has been disappointing but informative.

I offer the following as a mere record.  I don’t expect movement, I don’t expect anything to change.  Please don’t express sympathy for my feelings or ask me to stay.  I’m not looking for that.  I take responsibility for my choices, and I chose to behave in a way that has brought me to this point.  I am not complaining, I am not putting anyone down, I am recording how the experience looked and felt to me.  In the end, this was a lot closer to Alice’s Wonderland than anything I have ever experienced.  By a long shot.

C:  Wise’s quote seems excessive in places.

R:  Wrong.  It’s not excessive.

C:  It is excessive in criticizing watching Leave it to Beaver.

R:  Wrong.  I don’t see where it criticizes watching Leave it to Beaver.

C:  It claims that being moved by Leave it to Beaver is slapping colored people (sic) in the face and calling their concerns unworthy.

R:  Wrong.  It just says that Leave it to Beaver was inaccurate.

C:  Here is precisely what it says word for word.

R:   I think Leave it to Beaver was a cute show.

C:  You may think it is cute, but the author does not.

R:  Wrong.  He was just saying it wasn’t accurate.

C:  He said it was inaccurate and also said finding it moving was a slap in the face to colored people (sic).

R:  We’ve been debating this a long time with no movement on either side.  It’s time to quit.


C:  I agree with most of what is said here, but here are some aspects I find troubling.

R:  Wrong.  I disagree with everything you have said here and here’s how.

C:  I made clear I was not making the claims you ascribe to me, more than once, in my original comment.

R:  Is there any way in which you agree with the author?

C:  I said I agree with most of what he said.

R:  In what ways do you agree with the author?

C:  Here is a painstakingly detailed account of everything the author side that I agree with, including parts I disagree with only in one way.

R:  Okay, I’m glad you agree with those parts.  I’m not going to respond to your original concerns.


C:  I guess I’m asking for a little more focus on healing.

R:  Wrong.  Every healer alive knows there can be no healing without first having truth.

C:  I’m just asking for a little more focus on healing, not that truth be ignored.

R:  Wrong.  There can be no healing without first having truth.

C:  Yes, I’m saying to include the truth but focus more on the healing.

R:  Wrong.  I know you are saying to include the truth, but I’m saying to focus more on the healing.

C:  It feels as though you’re not responding to what I’m saying.

R:  Wrong.  This is just a minor disagreement and you have blown it all out of proportion.


C:  Have you ever seen accusatory truth without the presence of healing lead to progress?

R:  Yes, many times.

C:  I seriously doubt that healing can ever occur from the presence of accusatory truth alone.

R:  I had the experience of creating healing in a particular situation I was in.  You could learn from it. Read this essay.

C:  Surely there was healing energy present also.

R:  You are wrong to respond to me in generalities.  I’m speaking of a specific situation.

C:  That sounds hard for you.  Perhaps it was useful in some way?

R:  Wrong.  It was not useful in the way you say and you need to learn the reasons why.

C:  I think that, instead of discussing my idea, you are dismissing its very worth.  Are you really saying this?

R:  Listen to this detailed experience of mine.  How could your idea possibly have any worth?

C:  Do you think it possible for you to acknowledge any value at all in anything I say?

R:  I see no value at all in anything you say.  I’m not reading all your comments.  I’m not responding to your questions.  Did you read my essay?

C:  I feel you are not valuing my words.

R:  I don’t feel I’m being treated as an individual.

C:  I’m sorry if I’m not treating you well.  Here’s is exactly where I don’t feel listened to.

R:  I’m not disrespecting your words, just not bothering to read them all.  I am hurt that you didn’t read my essay.

C:  It feels insulting to have my words twisted into new meanings, then dismissed.

R:  I dismiss your demand for me to agree with everything you say.

C:  This feels insulting to me.

R:  You’re insulting me.

C:  I am upset by how someone is being treated.

R:  Why do you only care about the feelings of one person?  You are a hypocrite.

C:  I am against making someone wrong by twisting their words.

R:  You are wrong to say no one has the right to use the word “wrong.”  And hypocritical because you are calling others wrong.  Why are you the only person who counts?

C: I insist that you respond to what I say instead of making up things I said.

R:  You are angry.  You only care about your own feelings.

C:  Yes, I am angry because you are putting words in my mouth.

R:  I am angry, too, and I refuse to care about your feelings until you stop caring about the feelings of only a couple of people.

C:  People are trying to tell you something.  Please see if you can allow some shred of credibility to their words.

R:  People are trying to tell you something.

C:  This look likes an old-fashioned Mexican standoff.

R:  This is not an old-fashioned Mexican standoff.

C:  It is crazy-making to be called nothing but wrong repeatedly by several people.

R:  Will you own then that you have been the crazy one here?

C:  What has happened is a complete blow-up manufactured from unfounded accusations.

R:  Some people do things one way, others do them another.

For most white folks, indignation just doesn’t wear well. Once affected or conjured up, it reminds one of a pudgy man, wearing a tie that may well have fit him when he was fifty pounds lighter, but which now cuts off somewhere above his navel and makes him look like an idiot.                          Tim Wise

88 comments

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    • geomoo on July 23, 2008 at 02:48
      Author

    I’m not sure if I’ll even read the comments. I’m masochistic but within limits.  I definitely will not post or respond.  In fact, I would rather no discussion happen, because I don’t see it bringing anything but more emotional poison to the site.   I do hope you work out a way to stop the muggings, however.

    So, it’s been a short and mostly wonderful stay here.  I’m not going off all pouty and hurt, so don’t worry about that.  The love and support of so many people opened up my commitment to my writing.  Without exaggeration, my short time here has been a giant step forward for me.  So to everyone who works to make this an excellent site, deepest thanks.  You have been difference makers.

    • Robyn on July 23, 2008 at 03:19
  1. would be a good beginning.  Silly me I thought the directive to Be Excellent to Each Other was a sufficient nudge, but perhaps it should be spelled out more exactly.

    Folks, when someone doesn’t agree with you that doesn’t invalidate your idea or stance; it is nothing more than a point of disagreement.  Consider the shocking concept that both ideas may exist in some truth just as no idea exists in perfect truth.

    It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable, but I don’t see people even trying this.  I have witnessed shockingly rude behavior relentlessly repeated.  

    The price of admission to your blog seems to be tolerance of over the top rudeness, just to accommodate a small minority.  The majority of diarists have something wonderful to share, but there is always the risk of even one of those being hijacked into a hatefest over some imagined slight.  

    Why are we putting up with this?  Is this what you want?  Sorry geomoo, this isn’t for you since you’re gone, but for the rest of us that don’t want to be run out of town by a handful of bullies.  

  2. 8 years has everyone here on edge.

    That’s the only explanation I can come up with for a disagreement about Leave It To Beaver descending to this level.

    You’ve been a valuable contributor to Docudharma, geomoo, I hope you come back.

  3. The Outsider.  One of the reader reviews says this:

    Wilson explicates a thesis – that much of great Western Literature is written by and concerns men who see and feel more deeply than their contemporaries. Perhaps one might regard them as more sensitive. At any rate, such men are alienated-hence outsiders. Such figures include: Hermann Hesse, Van Gogh, Hemmingway, Lawrence of Arabia, H.G. Wells, Albert Camus, Vaslav Nijinsky, Sartre, Tolstoy, and others.

    The book was written before the Internet, so there is no chapter on docuDharma.  If there were, this essay could be heavily quoted.

    • Alma on July 23, 2008 at 06:30

    if you want to come back sometime geomoo.

    Peace.

  4. and when we witness something, like bullying, and walk away from or encourage it, what’s to discourage the behavior then?

    one can give wrongs without making a comment or, if not one to give wrongs, make a damned comment.

    instead of watching a train wreck.

    how did we get here? i mean in this country? ignoring things. ignorance. not speaking up.

    well, that’s not my way. i’m pissed off. and i’m not taking it. from anybody here. not from George Bush or Barack Obama.

    here’s where we live, now (h/t nocatz)

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25

    so if you think that our main problems are racism or gender, move over. get over it. it’s time to get in this fight together. sorry. there are pressing human issues. genocide. the destruction of our country. no fucking polar bears. there is serious shit happening.

    there is an us. there is a them. but it is not white vs. black or men vs women. or american vs china.

    again: it is most of the 6.7 billion of us against the relatively few trying to wield power over us.

    and the more we pander to our specific issues in the face of the disasters in front of us, then the less resources we have to work this shit out.

    fuck.

  5. don’t go

  6. my LittleCar-CowNoise buddy.

    I wish you and yours good health, peace, love and understanding.

  7. I scanned your essay and scanned the comments herein (will attempt to review them more thoroughly tomorrow).

    To let you know that I do very much empathize with you, let me try to explain something, from my own experiences.

    I know that often, when I tried so hard to make a point and there was no back-up and an unexpected sort of “pounce” on me for a viewpoint — having largely nothing at all to do with my point or points — it was hard to stomach and to understand — other than I had tried to make a viewpoint(s) and in so doing I had, in a way, exposed my “self.”  I think that inadvertent exposure of “self” makes us vulnerable, such that instead of our points or viewpoints being literally considered, we become the subject of — not reasonable thinking and reflection, but attacks on our “substance” — which is personally painful.

    If it is of any solace to you — you have NOT been the only recipient of such responses.

    Personally, I’m not sure I would dwell on it too much, one way or the other.  Each of us must examine our own purposes and premises, as I’m sure you did yours.  I feel you were nothing but extremely earnest in your endeavor here, even if misunderstood — here and there.  ‘Nuff said!

    Really wish you wouldn’t go — just ride above!  

    (exploding?  [email protected])

  8. as a good case in point for what pf8 is saying. Neither she and Geomoo and Night Owl for that matter are not racists nor insensitive to anyones oppressions or pain. They and me included have a different view of the problems and the solutions. They are diminishing anyones oppression or pain. If every discussion becomes scrutinized for offense against someones personal version of PC and if differing opinions are, as in Geomoo’s case decried as racist or sexist, and all threads break into who’s pain is the worst and how much your hurting the person with whom you disagree. Thats when you lose me.

    To be lectured about how one need to be educated is rude and fucking insulting. I do not blog to be educated by someone who gets to decide what I should learn and decides that all deviations from their view point are hurting them or dissing them. you cannot be honest in this case and this version of PC is just as oppressive as the dkos variety. For me (and go ahead and lecture me) identity politics do just this. They pit peoples self interest against the other and overlook the real truth, which is never really one sided.

    If I cannot come here and read the voices I like hearing from cannot read any interaction with out being lectured about how I’m not properly overwhelmed with anothers pain I just stay away or stick to safe essays. No thanks, To blame this on pf8 and geomoo and night owl and pinche or whoever offends Robyn is going to ruin your blog. Being excellent means not gagging people who try to explain that while all politics are personal they are also about the universal. sack cloth and ashes and pain are not my style and all they do is keep your pain alive and well.

    Btw… since when is telling someone to shove it up their ass excellent, when all this person did was offer a critique of a writer, a critique I thought waas valid. does that make me racist or sexist ? Geomoo is one of my favorite writers, so is pf8, so was NO, so was pinche, so much more interesting then sitting around taking about how bad we all are and histrionics over perceived insults to each others ego’s.

    Whose blog is this? if it’s community that should include all of good will. I’m sure Roybn will freak out because after all this blog is about her pain, but every thread she breaks with her ego just makes this place unable to deal with anything but her determinations and it all becomes an affront to her from the Clintons to leave it to beaver and back WTF? So after having said this I will have to feel guilty about it because I will hurt Roybn, sorry no offense meant to anyone but tough skins work two ways. If this is an anyway productive I sure can’t see it.                          

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