9/11: “They Knew, They Knew”

(2 pm. – promoted by ek hornbeck)

Cross posted from The Stars Hollow Gasette

Ali Soufran, former special agent working with the FBI, was tracking Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden long before 9/11. He was in Yemen investigating the USS Cole bombing when he heard about the attacks on that day. His book, The Black Banners: The Inside Story of 9/11 and the War Against al-Qaeda, has released which describes how missed opportunities to defuse the 2001 plot, and argues that other attacks overseas might have been prevented, and Osama bin Laden found earlier, if interrogations had not been mismanaged. It is an frighteningly, revealing picture of the dysfunctional and factional intelligence community.

Mr. Soufran spoke with Rachel Maddow discussing the CIA’s redactions to his book, his role with the FBI before and after 9/11 and, most importantly, what was known in the CIA before 9/11 that could have prevented the attacks:

From Jeff Kaye at FDL:

In at least one other case, crucial information was kept from Soufan and other investigators by CIA officials, information that would have helped break the Cole case, and, crucially, have led FBI investigators to identify Al Qaeda operatives who had entered the United States more than eighteen months before 9/11. These two operatives, Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi, died on the plane that rammed into the Pentagon.

The controversies surrounding the CIA’s withholding of information about these two hijackers was told in Lawrence Wright’s 2006 Pulitzer Prize-winning book, The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda and the Road to 9/11, and was further explored in Kevin Fenton’s recent book, Disconnecting the Dots: How 9/11 Was Allowed to Happen.

Here’s how Shane described the moment when Soufan realized he’d been had. For some strange reason, the NYT refrains from actually giving al-Mihdhar and al-Hazmi’s names.

   [Soufan] recounts a scene at the American Embassy in Yemen, where, a few hours after the attacks on New York and Washington, a C.I.A. official finally turned over the material the bureau requested months earlier [from the CIA], including photographs of two of the hijackers.

   “For about a minute I stared at the pictures and the report, not quite believing what I had in my hands,” Mr. Soufan writes. Then he ran to a bathroom and vomited. “My whole body was shaking,” he writes. He believed the material, documenting a Qaeda meeting in Malaysia in January 2000, combined with information from the Cole investigation, might have helped unravel the airliner plot.

Yes, they let it happen. That leaves the elephant question in the room: Why?


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  1. TMC
  2. tahoebasha3

    I have to say that I have some empathy for Mr. Soufan, who, indeed, by all accountings was in the dark as to the CIA’s information regarding al Qaeda persons, whose names it knew.  The following bit, apparently, was the beginning of deliberately withheld information:

    ….In January 2000, a 27-year-old female desk officer working in Rich Blee’s Bin Laden Station, called “Michael” in the Commission Report, was placed in charge of an operation to track several known Al Qaeda terrorists to a meeting in Malaysia.

    Learning that one of the men, a future Flight 77 hijacker, possessed a visa allowing him entry to the U.S., FBI agent Doug Miller, working at CIA, drafted a warning to his FBI bosses. According to the Justice Department’s Inspector General, it was Michael who directly ordered Miller to hold off on sending the cable, what turned out to be a permanent “hold off.” A few hours later, she sent a misleading email throughout CIA stating that the visa info had been shared with FBI. It seems circumstantially clear she knew this to be untrue, as only two days later, another FBI agent at CIA named Mark Rossini describes having a heated conversation with her in which she instructed him, “This is not a matter for the FBI. When we want them to know, we’ll let them know. And you’re not going to say anything.”. . . .

    She must have been directed to retract the memo to the FBI by “Frances” (“Michael” direct supervisor) Deputy Chief of Bin Laden Station, where circumstantial evidence connects her to the continued withholding of information from FBI investigators regarding this same future 9/11 hijacker, who by that time was known to be connected to the suspected Cole mastermind. to retract the memo to the FBI.

    The whole behavior of the CIA continued to be the same kind of measures used to withhold information from the FBI.  

    Also disturbing were efforts to obtain some information and names of some of the analysts involved, which were also thwarted by the CIA, on the basis that they were covert operatives.  This, apparently, was/is untrue altogether.  Because analysts in the CIA are public.

    Richard Clarke, the counter-terrorism advisor to President claims that the President was also unaware of the CIA’s information.  Although, Clarke had warned President Bush, et al on numerous occasions that there were impending threats to our country, which he said were ignored by the Bush Administration.

    Who, in the Bush Administration, had the closest ties with the CIA?  Here is just one instance.  I’d wager there are more, which began way back to 2001.

    Cheney’s CIA visits pressured us: analysts —

    June 6 2003

    . . . . . While visits to CIA headquarters by a sitting vice-president are not unknown, they are unusual, intelligence officials said.

    A spokeswoman for Mr Cheney declined to discuss the matter. . . . .

    Cheney had a new home built before leaving office just ten minutes walking distance to CIA Headquarters.

    The whole 9/11 official accountings reek from here to China and back.  How can information like this be construed in any other way than to see that the CIA were solidified in their efforts to conceal what they knew from the CIA, and why, indeed?  The fact that the Bush Administration ignored the many warnings had in the months prior to 9/11 is also interesting, like just, maybe, they ignored the warnings because they already knew? Whatever the case — this is blood curdling stuff!

    Jeff Kaye and Leopold Jason do great work — I read them on Truthout quite often.


  3. joeshwingding

    I think their actions since have shown why.

    Endless War,

    Enrichment of the few at the expense of the country,

    Installing their own thieves at the top of Iraq, Afghanistan,

    Destabilization of the ME,

    Patriot Act,

    Legalized spying on citizens,


    Repealing civil liberties,

    Just off the top of my head

  4. Lasthorseman

    how missed opportunities to defuse the 2001 plot

    Which is the justification for our current police state mentality.

    At the time I wondered why “the left” ignored in total Bush’s North American Union boondoggle, why the anti-war people shunned 911 truthers and or why Project for the New American Century was not prime time material for the “opposition” party.

    As such

    Mr. Soufran spoke with Rachel Maddow

    OK Rachel Maddow, but Rachel in my book anyways is still lamestream commericial and thus corporate media, something I have left a tad behind.  Yes, it’s good news, in a second veil level way…..hmmm…makes me think of a comical video of one of my guys making jokes about

    Frosty Bin Laden, was a popsicyle they say.

    He was talking about them having Bin Laden frozen since 2001 so they could “roll out” his capture at a politically expedient timeframe.

  5. wilberforce

    Bin Laden ?

    How likely is it that a former CIA agent, with ties to Rumsfield and others in the Reagan/Bush/Bush cabal acted alone?

    The question here is not: did American officials know.  That at least is very clear. The question is:  were American officials directly involved in the plot.  

    I don’t know the answer. But the later coverup of various things, makes me suspect that they very probably were directly involved.  

  6. bigsurtree

    might, ultimately, someday be considered by our Supreme Tribunal, it’s comforting to know that brilliant justices like Clarence Thomas are cared for by organizations like The Heritage Foundation (and its donors) that manage to share their wealth with these great thinkers. As I was enjoying my cereal this morning, I was amused to no end to read that Virginia, the loving wife of Clarence, had been paid nealy $700,000.00 in compensation between 2003-2007 for think tank work. Isn’t it a great relief to know that the Judicial Branch is not being treated differently from the other two highly esteemed branches of government and unfairly denied the just benefits of their high stations? Oh the true benefits of marriage between one man and one woman!  

  7. banger

    and then we can come up to only one possible conclusion. Some people in the U.S. intel establishment were directly involved in the carrying out of the 9/11 attacks. There simply cannot be any other explanation. It is forbidden to talk about that almost everywhere.

    If anybody still doubts that just ask yourself why has no investigation taken place that was based on forensic evidence? Why was no inquiry set up about what caused the fall of the three buildings–at least for the sake of future building–those buildings were constructed to withstand a plane crash–if they were built of inferior materials as Alex Cockburn insists then why no investigation of that? Why no investigation of what happened in the Pennsylvania crash which is deeply paradoxical if you just take in some of the eyewitness accounts and crash debris?

    The questions that remain out there are legion and Americans just accept the MSM/Government story without any doubt at all. And so it goes and will go.

    I had at least two people tell me that even if it was true they wouldn’t believe it because to know that any American was responsible for such an an attack was too painful to live with. This shows us the reality of the national psyche–I call it sheer cowardice.

    Also, it is clear that any understanding of today’s political situation is impossible without accounting for what happened ten years ago.

  8. tahoebasha3

    My sentiments entirely:

    Also, it is clear that any understanding of today’s political situation is impossible without accounting for what happened ten years ago.

  9. wilberforce

    Those are issues that need to be looked at.  

  10. Lasthorseman

    Peace Prize with every oil change!

  11. David G. Mills

    That Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth (now some 1200+ members) put out a video in time (or nearly so) for the tenth anniversary.

    It does a pretty darn good job of pointing out all the flaws in the official story of the World Trade Center collapses.

    There are a couple of edits needed (seems rushed to be produced in time for the tenth anniversary) and it could be more polished, but the sheer volume of architects, engineers, chemists and physicists who tell what they find wrong with the official version is quite persuasive.


  12. tahoebasha3

    The “laws” were being put in place so quickly it was to make your head spin.

    So, many, the National Emergency Act, endless, and then, there are close to about 1,000 Signing Statements that Bush signed on, the contents of which most of us are unaware.

    Supposedly, this was all being done in an effort “to protect us in the war on terra’,” while reality is they were enacted to protect them, not us from them.

  13. Xanthe

    making them stupid and pliable.  

  14. tahoebasha3

    should read “. . . . to see that the CIA were solidified in their efforts to conceal what they knew from the FBI. . . ” (NOT CIA).

  15. tahoebasha3

    yesterday and there are other things, such as not having deleted “to retract the memo to the FBI.” hanging on at the end of paragraph beneath the first quote.

    And, CIA is an “it” not a “they.”  

    Excuse same!

  16. tahoebasha3
  17. joeshwingding

    “Rachel in my book anyways is still lamestream commericial and thus corporate media”

    Why wont anybody talk to Sibel Edmonds the MOST censured person in America! Hell the courts cant even hear her case.

  18. joeshwingding

    of National Security just gets rammed through without anybody ever reading it.  

  19. alamacTHC

    …the “Patriot” [sic]Act was substantially written before 9-11:


    …and that Cheney-pig was already dividing up Iraq’s oil before 9-11 too:


  20. tahoebasha3

    are we/have we been wrong to question what American officials knew and know?

    YOU KNOW THE ANSWER!!!!  Like the entire episode was, maybe, planned, “mapped out” kinda’ thing?  

    The first thing Cheney did on the Bush cabal taking office was to form an Energy Task Committee, to plot and map out ALL of Iraq’s oil fields, size, capacities, etc.  — well before 9/11.  Of course, even acknowledging those facts, our attack on Iraq had nothing to do with the knowledges acquired!  

    There are not adequate adjectives for the people who have served and those who continue to serve NOT IN OUR NAMES!

  21. joeshwingding

    “The question here is not: did American officials know.  That at least is very clear. The question is:  were American officials directly involved in the plot.  

    Exactly! We have been asking the wrong questions.

    Wilber you should be working for the media … the real 4 estate.

  22. banger

    It’s interesting but much hinges on your position on the 60’s assassinations. If you believe the official stories of the killing of MLK, RFK and JFK then you can accept the 9/11 story. If you do not accept the assassination story then you have to assume that the assassinations signaled a coup which I think they did. I think that fact makes subsequent history much more understandable–the real power lies somewhere that we don’t see. Of course officialdom uses that as some kind of Tin Foil hattery and that, particularly in this country where ridicule = making debate points and is the great national trauma inflicted on all adolescents who either are ridiculed and humiliated socially or, more likely, are so afraid of being ridiculed that they keep quiet.  

  23. joeshwingding

    for Docudharma for being able to discuss this subject?

    The big orange just shuts off any discussion as if the “official story” by the Bush administration is good enough.

    Makes me so damn angry at the blind acceptance when there has never been a real investigation. NEVER!

  24. TMC

    What we should be asking them after all this time is why they did it.

    We need to be asking the current administrations why they are still covering it up.

  25. alamacTHC

    …I questioned the official story once–got a warning.  I rec’d a diary by someone who was questioning it–they kicked me out.

    VERY curious.  Then I discovered this:




    The corporatists have a very deep bench.  It would not surprise me at all if Moulitsas was still a CIA operative, engaged in an operation designed to bleed off, frustrate and dissipate any real challenge to corporatist power.  Sure as hell wouldn’t be the first time the CIA had done such things…

  26. tahoebasha3

    Cheney set up his Energy Task Force soon after being seated as Vice-President.  The Energy Task Force was obliged to map out the exact location of the oil fields in Iraq and all information about each one — output per day, actual capacity, etc.  An invasion of Iraq was being talked about and planned from the get-go!

  27. tahoebasha3

    but nothing, but nothing surprises me any more!

    I learned sometime back that two wives of a couple of big time execs on Wall Street each given something lke $320,000 apiece to go and invest in stocks and bonds, etc. — gratis!!!!  But you know, our owners can do any GD thing they wish, without repercussion.  If the SEC can literally shread some 18,000 complaints brought to it over many years and look the other way, this should be an easy thing for them to overlook, n’est que c’est pas?

  28. banger

    I do know that DKOS hosts many people who are Democratic Party operatives and PR people–nothing unusual since most blogs left and right contain such people since a big part of PR is and has been blogging (I worked for a famous K Street firm for half a year as a techie and knew quite a lot of what was going on).

    But all that should be obvious to anyone who has posted there as I have for several years. It’s interesting that when I bring the PR stuff up there’s always someone asking very pointedly about what proof I have of that and I reply that the question is absurd–any PR outfit that doesn’t is irresponsible. At the same time, it is well known that the CIA has had, as a central part of its mission, the taming and control of the mainstream media since its inception–this has been well-documented particularly during the Church Committee hearings. Something that could only have happened in that brief interval between Nixon and Reagan when the power-elite were not in complete control of everything.  

  29. tahoebasha3

    Insider Tells Why Obama Chose Not to Prosecute Torture, by David Swanson, September 3, 2011,

    . . . . .The Dean of the University of California at Berkeley Law School Christopher Edley, Jr. His comments will probably be showing up on video, but here is a report I was just sent by long-time peace and justice activist extraordinaire Susan Harman: . . . .
    They all burbled about academic freedom and the McCarthy era, and said it isn’t their job to prosecute him.


    “Then Dean Chris Edley volunteered that he’d been party to very high level discussions during Obama’s transition about prosecuting the criminals. He said they decided against it. I asked why. Two reasons: 1) it was thought that the CIA, NSA, and military would revolt, and 2) it was thought the Repugnants would retaliate by blocking every piece of legislation they tried to move (which, of course, they’ve done anyhow).

    “Afterwards I told him that CIA friends confirmed that Obama would have been in danger, but I added that he bent over backwards to protect the criminals, and gave as an example the DoJ’s defense (state secrets) of Jeppesen (the rendition arm of Boeing) a few days after his inauguration.

    “He shrugged and said they will never be prosecuted, and that sometimes politics trumps rule of law.

    “It must not, I said.

    “It shouldn’t, he said, and walked off.

    “This is the Dean of the Berkeley School of Law.”. . . .

    Personally, I’ve always wondered . . . . . !

    Here is a very interesting critique of the foregoing, particularly, in terms of the law, by Andrew Kreig . . . worth reading.

  30. Xanthe

    and let’s face it – it’s absolutely terrifying to face.  

  31. wilberforce

    My position on the JFK RFK shootings is quite different: who cares?

    These two were not left, they were right.  JFK essentially started the Vietnam war (no, guys there’s no evidence that he started it so he could stop it again. That’s just ludicrous) then tried to blow up the world for an encore.

    RFK’s only purpose in being in the race was to derail the far better  McCarthy campaign, which he did.

    So, not buying those, as conspiracy theories, they make less than no sense,  and not caring about it either.  

  32. banger

    I had read something about it but the article helps. Seems like things are unraveling just a tad probably becaue right not the oligarchs are so solidly in power that they don’t have to care what anyone thinks.

    It brings to mind a period of time I spent listening to C-Span radio broadcast the Johnson WH tapes over a period of a couple of years. I listened every chance I got and heard a substantial number of them. Johnson is such a compelling personality it was just interesting to hear him talk and hear him think out loud. But one thing was a constant–his fear of the American right-wing. His logic for staying in Vietnam was, mainly, to keep the right-wing off his back. It is implied that they were able to put major pressure on him.

    My guess, is that he traded a war-economy for, basically, his social-democratic and civil-rights agenda for which he deserves much praise. He was an S.O.B. for sure but he had a positive vision for America and he also was able to cobble together real power in domestic affairs by himself largely unhindered by the power-elite-cause everyone owed him favors. The only place he ran scared was national security policy. No President after him, other than Nixon, was able to have the latitude to enact bold programs.  

  33. Xanthe

    you believe others could not not believe it.

  34. tahoebasha3

    the WTC towers had been upgraded after the 1st hit to them.  The beams were reinforced, all kinds of upgrades were done to them.  The buildings were built to withstand just about any kind of impact imaginable!

  35. wilberforce

    I think so too. And, as I say below, I think the ‘unsolved’ and forgotten anthrax attacks were related.

    One thing I noticed, after Wellstone and his family died, after the anthrax attacks– the look in eyes of US Senators like Clinton changed.  They were personally frightened at the time they (unanimously I think?) voted in the Patriot Act, the Iraq War, and several other key votes.  

  36. tahoebasha3

    and her famous quote:

    “Why should we hear about body bags and deaths,” Barbara Bush said on ABC’s “Good Morning America” on March 18, 2003. “Oh, I mean, it’s not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?”

    She’s kinda’ representative of average American thinking — don’t you think?  Albeit, the extreme end!

  37. joeshwingding

    But also include the Pentagon.

    The MSM loves to show images of the towers. By far they are the most dramatic.

    But how often do you see pictures of the Pentagon or the crash site in Pennsylvania? Almost never. Why? Because a commercial airline jumbo jet did not crash there.





    There should have been debris all over. We should have seen luggage, chairs … my gawd there should have been bodies. Nothing.

  38. tahoebasha3

    (Without intention to distract from this thread in any way, I’ve been having awful problems trying to post.  It seems I can’t correct or add, subtract anything without first hitting “Preview” and then adjusting — problem is, I can’t get “Preview” to even come up 3/4ths of the time, so I select all in my comment, which then appears in the Google toolbar (????), and then I copy and then delete, hit “Cancel” — go out of thread to another site, come back in an attempt to post the comment again, often, numerous times, of course, it’s extremely distracting, to say the least.  I have to assume it’s something on my end (maybe, I’m being tracked [LOL!]), since no one else has been expressing similar problems. I’ve checked updates, done multiple clean-ups, etc., still the problem persists — any ideas?)

  39. tahoebasha3

    Seriously!  Knowing what we now know about media, propaganda, etc., nothing on this earth would surprise me one iota.  Plus, ALL we had was the media back then — no Internet — no other sources other than the TV (limited) and the newspapers.  So, you kinda’ have to wonder if, in fact, we were not the same victims then as we are now — only now we’ve gotten a whiff of reality, so to speak!

  40. tahoebasha3

    of that long ago — particularly, considering the targets.  Wellstone?  Minot group?  Col. Westerlung?  So, so, so many, wilberforce!  

    Maybe, we don’t yet have all the answers, but what we do know is that we have had an insidious, lethal and paralizing sort of government in our midsts for quite a period of time now — a combination of greed and power that has been culminating for a long time?  A Bilderberg incentive from further back?  Definitely, a PNAC effort — no doubts there.  CIA/MIC/neocon run government?  Seems so?  

    Thank you, wilberforce!

  41. wilberforce

    young to remember that time, but my reading on those two people just doesn’t gybe with people want to think about them.

    As for the media–it’s pretty similar I think to the pre-internet times. There were alternative papers, there still are. The difference is that everything in pixels, is changeable at any time, so when someone edits ‘wiki’- we lose our past.  

  42. wilberforce

    It may be the actual US government in many ways, but it doesn’t work alone, or only for itself.  And Bush senior was head of the CIA.  

  43. wilberforce

     The Democrats used to be the party of full employment.

    The Republicans used to be the party of the bankers.  Full employment meant: start a war. That’s what Kennedy and Johnson did, and the US economy boomed like never since- half a million dead, up to 536,000 ’employed’ in Vietnam/year *that’s just the one’s actually in Vietnam, not total) , plus the hires by all the MI contractors  will do that.  

    Korean war btw started under Truman (who then threatened to use nukes-he was like that).

    Banking back then meant: don’t care about employment or wars, international trade was sacrosanct.  

    That’s the simplified version, but it’s more or less true.  

  44. tahoebasha3

    It (CIA) doesn’t work alone, but at the behest of …. that’s the 64 thousand dollar question …… who?  I think that IT largely controls the maneuvers of what goes on governmentally, as I believe you do.  

    Yep, Bush, Sr., was the head of the CIA.

    I’m of the opinion that the CIA should be totally shut down and disempowered, as an adjunct of our government.  I It is capable of such evil as to be unbelievable.  As we speak, there are Secret Special Military Operations (or whatever the hell it’s called) going on in many places in the world that Americans have absolutely no clue about.


  45. wilberforce

    But it’s never going to happen–they have more power than congress or the presidency–an unlimited, unknown budget, and their own sources of income, since they own mega corporations too.  

  46. banger

    His firing of Allen Dulles may well have been a fatal mistake. Johnson then appointed Dulles to the Warren Commission.

    As for the “secret” operations–they are mainly conducted by a new organization called JSOC and their activities have been reported in the WaPo–again, I think the oligarchs don’t care anymore if their activities are exposed and, in fact, I think they believe Americans, now less morally fastidious than they were in former times think it’s cool to go around the world and assassinate enemies without trial and without a declaration of war. Dirty Harry is the archetype of our time and most Americans favor this kind of activity.

  47. banger

    A remarkable figure like Elizabeth Warren. The conditions of his death were very sketchy and certainly American intel agents or private forces (I think it was probably former intel agents on a private contract) could have caused it.

    And here’s the thing. Why shouldn’t they do that? I mean the stakes we are talking about in the America Empire are huge, greater than anything the Romans could ever imagine and many of the ruling-class Romans, unlike most ruling-class Americans, had at least the benefit of good Stoic educations. In America our education system (includes MSM) encourages people to pursue their own interests even if it harms society.  

  48. banger

    That’s exactly what the culture of narcissism is all about. I didn’t know that quote and it explains a lot of BB and her social milieu. BTW, not that I have traveled quite at that level of society but I’ve come close and that’s exactly the attitude of the very rich.  

  49. banger

    I think the CIA and it’s related spin-offs in the contracting community is operates in its own interest. I want to make something clear from personal experience. Most of the CIA is not involved in these kinds of operations. I know people and have even met a few who were involved in military activities in war zones. It is a very compartamentalized organization.

    I recommend looking into Fletcher Prouty who was the character played by Donald Sutherland in Stone’s JFK.

  50. tahoebasha3

    Nick Turse, of The Nation, has a couple of articles on the subject.

    . . . . .U.S. Special Operations Command (SOCOM) was established in 1987.  Having spent the post-Vietnam years distrusted and starved for money by the regular military, special operations forces suddenly had a single home, a stable budget, and a four-star commander as their advocate.  Since then, SOCOM has grown into a combined force of startling proportions.  Made up of units from all the service branches, including the Army’s “Green Berets” and Rangers, Navy SEALs, Air Force Air Commandos, and Marine Corps Special Operations teams, in addition to specialized helicopter crews, boat teams, civil affairs personnel, para-rescuemen, and even battlefield air-traffic controllers and special operations weathermen, SOCOM carries out the United States’ most specialized and secret missions.  These include assassinations, counterterrorist raids, long-range reconnaissance, intelligence analysis, foreign troop training, and weapons of mass destruction counter-proliferation operations.(emphasis mine)

    . . . . . While Olson made reference to only 51 countries of top concern to SOCOM, Col. Nye told me that on any given day, Special Operations forces are deployed in approximately 70 nations around the world.  All of them, he hastened to add, at the request of the host government.  [Of course!(????)]

    . . . . . Special Operations Command won’t disclose exactly which countries its forces operate in.  “We’re obviously going to have some places where it’s not advantageous for us to list where we’re at,” says Nye.  “Not all host nations want it known, for whatever reasons they have — it may be internal, it may be regional.” (emphasis mine)

    This is the epitome of evil we have come to, to play “gawd,” to seek out and kill people . . . .  !

    I would imagine they’re here in the good ole’ U.S. of A., too!  

    Again, you kinda’ come back to the same thinking, if investigations and accountings were had for 9/11 and the truth outed, this would be the one thing that turn our behavior here and the world over upside down, IMHO!

  51. wilberforce
  52. tahoebasha3

    born and spent the first two years of my life in Chicago, I was raised (until 15) elsewhere in a town that was largely Republican and THEY had money.  Growing up as a kid, I decently remember how one felt frowned upon if you didn’t have money.  As though, somehow, you were less than a worthy human being because you didn’t have money.  I did, later on in life know a few people of wealth — totally different and extremely charitable.  But I recall having gone for dinner once in Key Largo . . . I think it was at the Ocean Reef Club. . . . DuPonts and the like . . . the place reeked with just such people — I will never forget.  The people I was with were not WASPs (to the contrary) and I never understood why’d they’d even go to such a place, unless challenged to gain entry.  

  53. tahoebasha3
  54. tahoebasha3

    I had seen the series of those photos long ago.  The hole left in the Pentagon was way too small for a commercial airline flight to have flown through.  I’ve heard and there has been speculation that it was probably a missile.  

    And, yes, the absence of debris was curious, to say the least!

  55. tahoebasha3
  56. tahoebasha3

    it was a long time ago, wherever the dinner took place, it was private/exclusive — a yacht club, but was either Ocean Reef Club, or in the vicinity.  It really makes no difference, I’m sure you got my point.

  57. banger

    U.S. operatives. Interestingly, I found out by chance from a friend who is an avid martial artist and who trained for a summer in Russia that the center of security details may well be Russia. They have developed highly efficient and unique martial arts techniques and very clever methods of protecting people. I’ve seen about a dozen videos made for bodyguards. It is quite a little industry over there.

    The word of high-stakes is dramatically different from middle-class life. You have to be willing to take enormous personal risks and be also ready to kill rivals if you have to and this exists at all levels. I’ve found, btw, that there are people I can contact who will kill for a fee and I talked to one very rich person who was seriously considering killing his ex-wife–well, he was drunk but very serious. Certainly morality is in short supply in those circles when you speak to them in private.

    I found the movie Eyes Wide Shut to be very evocative. I think Kubrick was trying to wake us up a little.  

  58. banger

    and the character was not exactly Prouty but a composite.

  59. tahoebasha3

    are, in circles you speak of, inconsequential, apparently.

  60. joeshwingding

    security video released. One frame had something … was it a missle? Hard to say but looking for debris from a commercial jet it should have been obvious.

    This is all bullshit. Pardon my language.

    Biut look at the conversation here. People are still not satisfied with the “official story”.

    Thanks for the open dialog tahoe. Knowing that there are other people who can see thru the ruse makes it better for all of us.  

  61. tahoebasha3

    The gist of this site has always been to promote open dialogue, IMHO.  Forthright honesty is not the problem — the problem, in largesse, has to do with those who refuse to open up their minds to reality and, resultantly, start attacks on others for that inability of their own.  

    I understand, joeshwingding, it can be very lonely to have thoughts other than those of the MSM and the lame brains that follow it, but, more importantly, the efforts to uncover TRUTH and disseminate it as best we can is, as a citizen, a responsiblity, I feel, that should be borne by each and every one of us.  

    (P.S.  (I note that you often don’t respond to comments — I gather that you don’t have enough time, but I thought I would mention it, because everyone likes to have their comments acknowleged in some fashion or another — expressions of disagreement are also welcome.)

  62. tahoebasha3

    I think you’re asking the question of banger, hard to tell, your question is pretty far down — so, let’s hope that he responds.

    At any rate, meantime, here’s a Google on the subject!  Pretty scary — note that G. H.W. Bush seems to have had his input back then, as well.

    The thing is, wilberforce, how can we EVER CLEAN UP THE ILL IN THIS COUNTRY with these frightening operations going on covertly?  Without the knowledge of Americans and others?  

  63. wilberforce

    Yeah, I was asking Banger about the JFK <> CIA thing.

    As to your question; I don’t know.

    Once you put a system in place-like at the top, the CIA, or all the way down to prison guards, whose jobs depend on the war on drugs, the people in that system will fight to the death to keep it going-their livelihood depends on it.

    And, the CIA is self funding, & self perpetuating, since it owns unknown corporate entities. Even if the USA goes broke on endless war (and eventually it will) , the CIA may still be solvent.  How do you fight that?  I don’t know.

    You can’t do it politically. I guess the only thing you can do is attack / expose all the horror they cause (see wikileaks) , and hope that there’s a call for reform.  Right now though, we all seem much to used to violence paid for by us.  

  64. tahoebasha3

    Yes, I suppose continual exposure is the best we can do right now.  

    Can you imagine if some other country or countries commenced wars, operated covertly and carried out selective assassinations (maybe, some actually do, but to their own more so) in the grandiose fashion of the U.S.????  I believe that if we do not STOP our aggressions the world over . . . . well, you know, karma is a bitch!

    As to the Google I gave you — it pertains to Dulles, etc.  As Banger said, JFK fired Dulles, etc., so if you take a look, some of those links may be a little revealing as to what Banger was speaking of.  

  65. banger

    Some of it is limited hang-out kind of stuff and certainly not untypical of any intel service. Deception is the job of these services and it’s not limited to the U.S., in fact, it may be even worse with other intel services.

    What we get from the MSM is not an accurate representation of how the world really works–MSM is rally a virtual Ministry of Truth–I believe very little of what comes out as “news” because I know the political nature of the process of reporting and commentary. Fictional works portray a more a more accurate view of the world–in the intel context the movie Syriana gives an idea of what really goes on.

  66. joeshwingding

    for not responding as often as I should.

    I guess I figured my input was not always warranted. I post essays on occasion that really get no traction so sometimes I neglect checking back to see who might have responded.

    I will make a concerted effort to be more engaging.

    Thanks for the tip.  

  67. tahoebasha3

    I saw Syriana!  Very good movie depicting some of what really goes on, even if fictional.

    There is nothing out of the MSM to trust period . . . all owned by megaconglomerates with major right wing affiliations.

  68. tahoebasha3

    for the exact reasons you stated — wasn’t me!  wilberforce mentioned it as an invalid source of information, because it is constantly challenged and being updated, so that the “truth” becomes shoved into the shadows — building American history for our kids, you know, so they can be fed more garbage, just as we were.  Only our kids may not have the time for studies or the like, given that they may find themselves working for $0.50 an hour shining shoes of the rich!!!!

  69. tahoebasha3

    occasions.  Not necessarily the case, though.  I think a lot of diaries actually get read, even if not recc’d or commented on.

    I know in my case, I haven’t the time to read and every diary that goes up, so I select one or two, read them thoroughly, comment, etc.  But I try to go to different posters in the next few days or so.  

    Thank you, you’re welcome!

  70. RUKind

    More stupid and more pliable than they already were. Are. Arrgh!

  71. RUKind

    Tomorrow, the 20th, may be Greek default day which could mark the beginning of Armageddon.

  72. tahoebasha3

    No, maybe, the AE for 911 Truth wasn’t mentioned here on this thread, but IT WAS MENTIONED to you!

    David G. Mills!

  73. David G. Mills

    Apparently I missed your post.  I have known the video was coming for quite sometime as many of the individual interviews have been appearing piecemeal on the internet for some months now.

    I wish you had made an essay instead of a post to me so more people would take note.  Why don’t you do one?

    This video really needs to be seen.

  74. banger

    We have time to create some alternatives–I don’t think the neo-feudal future will be as rosy for the rich as they think it will be.

  75. wilberforce

    I meant wikipedia is constantly being updated…not wikileaks. Or is that what you meant?

  76. tahoebasha3

    in your evaluations, banger!  What else can we do other than to hope for the best and TAKE ACTION when and where we can?  I have a feeling “inside” that voices are going to become LOUDER STILL!

  77. tahoebasha3

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