The 11th Anniversary of the End of the USA

(2 PM – promoted by TheMomCat)

Effectively, the end of the USA occurred on 9/11/01. Two major forces collided that day. The first was a group of oligarchs who wanted to institute authoritarian rule on an unruly and increasingly (form their POV) immoral nation. The second group was the majority of citizens in the American Republic who were basking in the glow of vast technological change that was providing them with an enormous playground full of toys and cheap baubles who had lost practically all interest in the responsibilities of citizenship–who wanted, in short, a blue pill. During the course of the day many reports came in, no one knew what was happening. Buildings collapsed that were designed to withstand plane crashes at near free-fall speed, explosions were heard and recorded before those collapses. Commentators noted that the collapse of WTC 1 and 2 were eerily similar to controlled demolitions. People like me, who knew Washington DC very well, were stunned at the plane crash into the Pentagon knowing that the building was surrounded by anti-aircraft and anti-missile missiles confusion reigned. Then somehow the government let it be known that Al-Qaida was responsible and that was the explanation.

I was surprised by several things during the weeks that followed the attacks. First was that in the few days following the attacks I was monitoring C-span radio and the odd call-in shows and one heard, often, “what did we do to these people that made them so angry?” suddenly within a few days these comments stopped and a flood of patriotic, jingoistic crap started flowing out of people. Journalists stated their willingness to take part in this “war” and to their duty–not their duty to us as citizens but their duty as part of the military operations that were to follow. I saw a glee, a joy in the eyes of mainstream journalists that now they too could be part of a “greatest generation” and undergo the trials and tribulations of “wartime.” The feeling of national exhileration over this tragedy was astonishing–people all over from all walks of life were flying flags on their cars–even on of my very liberal Harvard educated friends put a flag on his car. People delighted in this sense of unity and the events of 9/11 bonded a nation–we were all fellow Americans engaged in one common struggle against evil–comic books were coming to life!

About two years earlier I had shared an office with a Chinese academic who had been, in fact, sent to the Mongolian labor camp for his middle and high school years during the Cultural Revolution because his family had been, for generations, scholars. It turned out he was quite nationalistic in  his way and believed that the U.S. was all bluster in its dealings and that Americans were too soft to respond aggressively to threats. I warned him that this was a big mistakes. Americans would react hysterically to any attack or major threat in ways that would involve massive overreaction. Americans were, I told, him on a hair-trigger of anger. Indeed what is, on the surface series of massive terrorists acts that ought by non-state actors should, rationally speaking, been handled as primarily a criminal act was instead a causus belli against the entire world. Suddenly we found our selves joyous warriors who were fighting not only against a few hundred largely Arab terrorists but “terror” itself. In that cause we were willing to trash not only the Constitution, rule-of-law but the very basis of English common law–habeas corpus in the virtual blink of the eye. We, as a country, were no longer bound to international treaties, no longer bound to any laws or normal procedures–note that none of the normal procedures to investigate the plane crashes or building collapses were followed–in fact it took over a year of intense lobbying to get the government to agree to an investigation of the events. And even that “investigation” focused, not on the events, but on the immediate government response which was whitewashed in the most obvious way possible. I saw some of the hearings and, as a veteran of the world of Washington DC, I recognized the winks and nudges that are de rigeur at hearings were questioner and witness are in basic agreement on the fundamental story and were just going through a pro-forma procedure to please the peasants.

Americans wanted to believe the story the government told them. The story provided a beautiful and heroic mythological framework that allowed people to feel good about themselves–people envied our success and wanted to destroy us but, instead, we would destroy them! Ha! They’ll see might of American weaponry and rue the day they envied us. We’ll make them pay and make them love it. That was the general attitude across the political spectrum. There were reservations on the left that maybe general war wan’t a good idea–but let’s be clear here: the official left–the Amy Goodmans, Chomsky’s, Alex Cockburns and most of the rest of them (with a half a handful of notable exceptions) fiercely attacked anyone doubting the official story in the least bit. Not even a sliver of doubt was allowed other than a few tepid questions introduced by Michael Moore in his movie concerning the events. But no one outside the world of “conspiracy theorists” entertained doubts. This kind of created a big question mark over my head that lasted at least a year. The events stunned me, the reaction to events stunned me but when I began looking into the facts I found that there were none to back up the official story. I remember channeling Church Lady on 9/11–“how conveeeeennnieeeent” but beyond that I didn’t care to look too deeply. When I did look into it I was stunned by how obvious it was that the government was involved. It seemed to me that looking at the sum-total of the events from the fighter jets no scrambling through the strange building collapses, through the impossibility of the flight that hit the Pentagon that there were too many discrepancies and eventually the truth would come out. What shocked me was how little cover-up there was. The fraud was perpetrated in plane (heh) sight! Any reasonable person looking at the facts couldn’t accept the official story. Yet, any mention of evidence to the contrary of the official story was met with universal anger and derision. If you get a chance you should read Alex Cockburn’s vicious attacks on those who were “conspiracy nuts” the whole piece was a cartoon version of one of Donald Ducks temper-tantrums without a shred of fact only diatribe and vague speculations: for example, why did the towers fall at near free-fall speed? Well, obviously, the mafia which controlled the construction trades at the time made use of inferior steel (quite a conspiracy theory itself). It was then and there that I began to have an idea that the left in America was rotten to the core and worse than useless the equivalent of the Stasi-opposition–meaning a fake (for show) opposition if not in fact at least virtually.

Thus, it was no surprise that, in the end, the left in America proved to be as insubstantial a any opium dream. Without a coherent left the right would run wild and it did. We now live in a authoritarian state with many elements of fascism but perhaps more elements of neo-feudalism. Regardless, by any reasonable measure we are not living any longer in a Constitutional Republic with democratic institutions. We have  had a decade of questionable elections (Florida 2000, Georgia 2002, Ohio and Florida 2004) such that maybe there is no need any longer to have questionable elections. Just give candidates “offers they can’t refuse” if and when they get into office and you, if you are an oligarch, get most of what you want no matter who wins. The oligarchs need nothing more–just a more supine and compliant public that will, eventually, even offer voluntarily their first born children as sex-slaves to their masters. We could, through collective effort slow this movement or even reverse it to some extent–but we can never return to Constitutional rule. I see no reasonable course to that except one. And that one course open to us and it is, clearly, the ONLY course is to have an independent evidence-based investigation of 9/11. It is the only possible form of opposition that might be worth pursuing if any of yo are serious about being in opposition. Any other course is easily checkmated by the authorities as Occupy clearly and graphically proved.


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  1. banger
  2. Compound F

    when it’s an existential threat, hence extraordinary efforts to suppress ordinary evidence.

  3. Lasthorseman

    Meets Edward Bernays, merged with BF Skinner.  Building seven anyone?  God, it’s days like this I miss German beer.  Banger I like yours.  Maybe I just don’t have the patience anymore to be rational about something I think is just so obvious.

  4. tahoebasha3

    Today is the same kind of beautiful, glorious day that 9/11 was . . . . same as I was riding the train to go into the loop to my place of work . . . . and greeted by a frantic, near hysterical boss (who seldom ever emoted) . . . . Barbara, Barbara, something terrible . . . . go quick to the TV room . . . . . and I did!  I believe I was seeing the 2nd tower being hit . . . . it was surreal, as though watching some kind of awful movie . . . . stunning and paralyzing at the same time.  We were told to go home, as the building (the Aon Building) across the street was considered a target, as well.  It didn’t happen easily, as train stations were packed with persons wanting to go home . . . . it was at least an hour before being able to board a train.  


    Strange things began happening almost immediately. The next or same day a hasty announcement that the hits were the work of Osama Bin Laden. Bin Laden family members were quickly jet-planed out of the country within a day.  As crews worked on removing debris from the towers, supposed molten steel was quickly removed and sent out of the country . . . . with no examination of it. Re-watching the buildings coming down, as though they were “sand castles” seemed so unbelievable.  Building No. 7 had also come down in the exact same fashion as had the Twin Towers, though it had never been hit by an airplane or anything else. So many things could have or should have set minds in motion. And as time went on, many new revelations came to fore, like William Rodriquez, a janitor, who worked for the WTC, who had heard explosions in the basement (also was considered a hero for having led many people to safety), whose mention of the explosions got him immediately gagged . . . I don’t know to this day if the gag has ever been removed from him.  There’s so, so much that was learned little by little.

    Hypothetically, the consequences, were the truth ever to come out and be known, would be collassal in terms of the many involved that would be exposed . . . .  it would be staggering, I truly believe!

  5. bigsurtree

    or should I say the short epilogue, the believed

    mastermind was…”finally apprehended after ten long

    years of running and hiding, fatally wounded, wrapped in

    fish bait and dropped into the sea near his ancestral

    home some 10,000 miles from the scene of the crime.”


  6. polm

    especially during 1968, when MLK and JFK were assassinated, and then it began to go further downhill from there.  It didn’t happen as quickly as it happened later, when the Carter Administration, then Reagan, Clinton, and the  Bushes all took power, but it was starting to happen, nonetheless, and the United States had definitely started moving in a rightward direction, and into a more militant stance, even prior to 9/11.

    Jules Wittcover’s excellent book,  “The Year the Dream Died; 1968 Revisited in America” , definitely presents a great insight on that.

  7. tahoebasha3

    Paul Craig Roberts, former Assistant Secretary of the US Treasury and Associate Editor, etc., on September 11, 2012.  I just read this Roberts’ article.  He clearly points out the lack of realities of the government’s official position, plus much more!

    These questions disturbed me, because as a former member of the congressional staff and as a presidential appointee to high office, I had high-level security clearances. In addition to my duties as Assistant Secretary of the US Treasury, I had FEMA responsibilities in the event of nuclear attack. There was a mountain hideaway to which I was supposed to report in the event of a nuclear attack and from which I was supposed to take over the US government in the event no higher official survived the attack.

    The more the story of 9/11 was presented in the media, the more wondrous it became. It is not credible that not only the CIA and FBI failed to detect the plot, but also all 16 US intelligence agencies, including the National Security Agency, which spies on everyone on the planet, and the Defense Intelligence Agency, Israel’s Mossad, and the intelligence agencies of Washington’s NATO allies. There are simply too many watchmen and too much infiltration of terrorist groups for such a complex attack to be prepared undetected and carried out undeterred. . . . .

    As a person whose colleagues at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington were former secretaries of state, former national security advisors, former CIA directors, former chairmen of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, I was troubled by the story that a collection of individuals unsupported by a competent intelligence service had pulled off the events of 9/11.

    As a person with high-level government service, I knew that any such successful operation as 9/11 would have resulted in immediate demands from the White House, Congress, and the media for accountability. There would have been an investigation of how every aspect of US security could totally fail simultaneously in one morning. Such a catastrophic and embarrassing failure of the national security state would not be left unexamined.  

    NORAD failed. The US Air Force could not get jet fighters in the air. Air Traffic Control lost sight of the hijacked airliners. Yet, instead of launching an investigation, the White House resisted for one year the demands of the 9/11 families for an investigation. Neither the public, the media, nor Congress seemed to think an investigation was necessary. The focus was on revenge, which the Bush neocon regime said meant invading Afghanistan which was alleged to be sheltering the perpetrator, Osama bin Laden. . . . . .

     Read more here.

    This is a must read.  All I can say is that anyone who may still have doubts about what really happened on 9/11 would have to be extremely dense!

  8. Rusty1776
  9. TMC

    whether that was a “civil war,” a “war to end all wars,” a “war on drugs,” or a “war on terror.” Truth is always the loser.

    They knew and, perhaps, could have stopped it but instead, it is becoming increasingly clear, they let it happen.

    Some of us already knew that but were told this was a conspiracy theory. Should I laugh or cry?

  10. polm


    Without a coherent left the right would run wild and it did. We now live in a authoritarian state with many elements of fascism but perhaps more elements of neo-feudalism. Regardless, by any reasonable measure we are not

    is undoubtedly correct, banger, but the Republicans turned even further to the Right at least in part, due to the Democrats thinking that they could out-Republican the Republicans by turning to the Right themselves.  As a result, the whole country is screwed, really.

  11. banger

    That is the most time-tested method of psychic survival I know of.

  12. banger

    …the official story. It has been one of the great revelations of my life. It’s changed my whole view of history, human nature and society–it has made real the social science I studied.  

  13. tahoebasha3

    the official story so much . . . . it’s just that it’s far easier on them to do so and they don’t have to be troubled about it anymore . . . for all we know!  Yet, I would wager that, privately, more than we know are STILL very troubled by it all, particularly, the New Yorkers, who lived through and experienced the whole horrific tragedy!

  14. polm

    9/11, to me,  has proven to be a double-edged sword.  I remember it being a beautiful, crisp, sunny mid-September day, which had started out as an ordinary day for me.  I heard the news about the airplanes flying into the WTC Towers on the radio.  At first I thought it was a hoax, but when I turned on my TV and saw the horrible footage of the airplanes flying into the WTC Towers,  I knew differently.  After two hours of watching the same footage, I turned off the TV.

    At the same time as not being really able to get into the jingoism,patriotism and nationalism that first resurged late in the Carter Administration, snowballed during the Reagan Administration, the Bush Admns, and even the Clinton Administration, and still continues even now,  under Obama,  9/11 also has a somewhat more positive, and special meaning for me.

    In mid-August 2001, shortly before 9/11, I received a phone call, plus an ad in the mail, from some friends of mine  who’d lived in Boston but moved down to NYC some years ago and knew that West Side Story was/is my favorite movie, about a special 40th-year Anniversary screening of West Side Story down at NYC’s Radio City Music Hall, in early October, asking me if I wanted to go.  I excitedly said yes, and, after a snafu, the tickets were obtained.

    Saturday, October 6th was the big day.  Leaving Boston shortly before seven that morning, I drove down to the Big Apple, where I stayed at my cousin’s  Upper West Side Condominium, after the West Side Story screening.  I hung out with my cousin for afew hours, and then they went upstate for the weekend.  

    What a Saturday night out that was!  Radio City Music Hall was filled with an exuberant, friendly crowd, and there was much finger-snapping and applause from the audience throughout the screening of West Side Story.  WSS had been cleaned up, reprinted, restored to its former glory and color and remastered, taking on a magical, almost-3-dimensional quality when shown on a great big, wide movie screen, in a real movie theatre.  The scenery is  more expansive and one can see all of everything.   The brilliant Leonard Bernstein musical scored, the beautifully-choreographed dancing, the richly colored costumes, photography and overall cinematology all seem even more intense and brilliant on a great big, wide movie theatre screen.  From the warring Jets and Sharks to the romancing Tony and Maria, the various characters of West Side Story seem to move much more fluidly and freely, and in a much wider, more open space.  The very story behind this great movie/musical classic, too, seems to take on a new richness.  I’ve gone to many screenings of West Side Story since.  

    The year 2001 one was a sad, strange year for me.  My dad had passed away due to a long illness that totally took him over, costing him his coordination, balance and, ultimately his memory, and eventually killing him.    That weekend in NYC in early October of 2001 where I saw friends, relatives and a very special movie, plus a brief change of scenery, had given me a much needed lift after an unsettling year.

  15. tahoebasha3

    to my foregoing comment.  

    On the day of 9/11, while those slow, unmaneuverable planes were flying in heavily restricted airspace, not one military interceptor was had.

    The most sophisticated military in the world, able to strike dime-sized targets from hundreds of miles away with laser-guided missiles, precision radar equipment, and state of the art aircraft capable of flying well over 1,300 mph, could not locate, engage, nor intercept four wandering jumbo jets. A military that has a budget larger than the combined military assets of every other country in the world could not scramble, intercept and engage any of the radically wayward planes. Even Flight 77, which was allowed to fly unimpeded and crash into the Pentagon one full hour after two jets had been flown into the Twin Towers in NYC, failed to elicit the response and intercept from any military jets. . … .

    Defenders of the ‘official story’ blame confusion and chaos as reason for the lack of proper military response on the morning of 9/11. They spin stories of crowded radar screens, FAA confusion and lack of communication, NORAD mix-ups and lack of appropriate response protocol, uncertainty in regards to rules of engagement and chain of command, phantom flights, war games, dispersed military and Pentagon commanders, etc. etc. All of which is nonsense. FAA flight controllers are highly trained and capable professionals, accustomed to and comfortable with incredibly crowded radar screens. Confusion in times of war and crisis is expected and planned for. Strict rules of engagement and combat protocol are written, designed, and followed with unambiguous clarity specifically because of the inevitable chaos that ensues at the onset of an attack. . . . . . (more here.

    That fact alone should be enough to set anyone’s hair on fire!

    Moreover, on Thursday, September 6, 2001, as reported by one of our bloggers at that time, managers of all the WTC companies received a memo from their employers informing them that a power down of the WTC Towers would be occurring the weekend coming for some technical upgrades, or in the case of our one blogger, no excuse was offered at all.  This same day, bomb sniffing dogs were removed from the WTC buildings.  

    The “upgrades” or whatever the reason given were to be made by the security company for the WTC Towers and all buildings.  

    Marvin P. Bush, the president’s younger brother, was a principal in a company called Securacom that provided security for the World Trade Center, United Airlines, and Dulles International Airport. The company, Burns noted, was backed by KuwAm, a Kuwaiti-American investment firm on whose board Marvin Burns also served. [Utne]

    According to its present CEO, Barry McDaniel, the company had an ongoing contract to handle security at the World Trade Center “up to the day the buildings fell down.”

    The company lists as government clients “the U.S. Army, U.S. Navy, U.S Air force, and the Department of Justice,” in projects that “often require state-of-the-art security solutions for classified or high-risk government sites.”

    Stratesec (Securacom) differs from other security companies which separate the function of consultant from that of service provider. The company defines itself as a “single-source” provider of “end-to-end” security services, including everything from diagnosis of existing systems to hiring subcontractors to installing video and electronic equipment. It also provides armored vehicles and security guards. . . . . (read more here and here.)

    The security company knowledge was not known immediately and it was sometime later (a year or two) before it became known, as I recall.  How many people would dismiss that fact as pure coincidence?  It boggles the mind!

  16. polm

    If Osama Bin Laden has been dead for more than ten years, why in the world did we go into Afghanistan or Pakistan or whatever a year or two ago to supposedly kill him?  That’s revolting!  How does everybody know that we even got the right guy, first of all?  Secondly, how can people act so ghoulishly and party and celebrate over this guy’s death, even though he may have been evil incarnate?  Beats me.

    Whether or not it was Osama Bin Laden that we killed, we had no business going in there and killing him.  He should’ve been tried, either at the Hague, or in a Muslim Court, for his crimes, and the decision regarding what to do with him left up to the Court(s) who tried him.

  17. tahoebasha3

    You do have a way!!

  18. bigsurtree

    John Q. Adams noted that on their inevitable way to oblivion, all democracies waste, exhaust and murder

    themselves. I don’t think America has murdered itself yet,

    but it may be very close to life support. Hope you’re

    doin well spectatin on the madness. I’m still tuned in,

    but to what I can’t really say.


  19. banger

    It’s just not the same country. No habeas corpus, no Constitution. If the President has the legal right to kill anyone he chooses without any due process then the Constitution means nothing. If the government can ignore treaties passed by the Senate it is no longer operating legally.

    In addition, by not seriously convicting clear law-breakers on Wall Street and in the mortgage industry who were clearly committing crimes, the government officially announced that if the crime is big enough and committed by “made-men” then it is not punishable. This creates a distinct legal class of aristocrats–I’m sure the class extends now to major executives of major corporations (as long as they don’t get into conflicts with their peers). And so on and so on.

    The kicker is that the American people, on balance, are quite happy to lose their civil liberties and to create a highly stratified class-structure. There is no interest in the fine points of democracy and rule-of-law. Few people object to the President’s ability to institute extra-judicial killings which violate not only American law but international law.

    Thus both in the law itself and the culture this country is no longer the same country and 9/11 was the event that allowed what was lying in wait to be actualized.

    This new country may well thrive for all I know. Life will go on and I doubt the satisfactions of life will change much. Culture and even positive values may even to better under these new arrangements–but it will never be as it was. Mind you, the world I grew up in wasn’t so great but the structure of our system was respected by the people and the rulers–even when they undermined it, particularly with the growth of the national security state which was the precursor to this situation.

  20. tahoebasha3

    Hope you’re doin well spectatin on the madness. I’m still tuned in, but to what I can’t really say.

    I’m doin’ O.K., but not “spectatin” too much — it seems pretty clear the direction we’re headed in, unless some kind of mystical or other tsunami sweeps over the path and destroys it.  I hear you, “tuned in to but what — I’m tuned in, too, but to “what?,” not sure, but it sure seems like mass insanity to me!  

  21. tahoebasha3

    “indefinite detention” law.  

    Judge Katherine B. Forrest of the Southern District of New York, an Obama appointee, said in an 112-page ruling on Wednesday that the measure “is facially unconstitutional: it impermissibly impinges on guaranteed First Amendment rights and lacks sufficient definitional structure and protections to meet the requirements of due process.”

     Read more here.

    Interesting development!

  22. polm

    Why is it okay that the fact that the structure of this country has been so disrespected that there’s no more habeas corpus, no Constitution, that lawlessness is a way of life and people from all walks of life can be allowed to do whatever the hell they please, and that the loss of Civil Liberties is something to be accepted and that one should accept the fact that an ordinary private citizen could be possibly hauled off in the middle of the night with a simple knock on their door or whatever?  It’s not, imho, and I personally don’t see any cultura and positive values being any better under such circumstances.  Personally, I find it unacceptable, especially because there’s little tolerance over any opinion that dissents from the mainstream opinion…on anything, which is really disgusting.

    I can’t help feeling nostalgic for  the days when the overall structure of this country was respected, although there were certain things that needed to be changed.  

    Or, are you just being snarky, banger?  Just curious.

  23. banger

    Not that it makes much difference but it’s a positive indication that there is resistance to the current “justice” regime within the judiciary.

  24. bigsurtree

    general historical description, he was quick to respond that “it’s just a notion.” This I agree with.

  25. banger

    The Constitution was not formally set aside….the Prez may have ordered killings but it was done covertly not in a blaze of publicity.

  26. polm

    it doesn’t make a President’s ordering the killing(s) a good thing.  It’s inexcusable, in fact.  The current administration, while it didn’t start all the stuff that’s going on, has certainly ante-ed up, extended and expanded  upon a lot of it, in big ways.

  27. banger

    I personally find the situation you describe appalling.I care about the Constitution and what it represents. But I know that it is over. I know that this sort of government is not sustainable–you can’t have an Empire and a Constitutional Republic at the same time. In some ways, for example, the Augustan Age and the two centuries that followed the founding of the Roman Empire weren’t that bad. The Roman world became a multi-cultural institution and its art and culture improved, depending on how you want to meaure it. Certainly the Mediterranean world was more peaceful under Roman domination than before so I don’t know if we should really mourn the death of the American Republic any more than Romans should have mourned the death of the Roman Republic.

    I suspect modern democracy is probably ultimately a doomed project–I don’t think people can handle it. The masses are always ready to trade comfort, security, entertainment, baubles for the virtues required of citizens of a democratic republic. Democracy is just abnormal and most people don’t want it anymore than they want real Christianity.

    I think we should make the best of it and realize that people in the pat have lived fairly well under authoritarian leadership and we shouldn’t fret too much about things we cannot change. I don’t beliee, even, the democracy is the best form of government–I just believe it is a form of government that can be very good when it works and bad when it doesn’t–like any other form of government. Who knows, maybe after a period of time Americans may actually want to return to the notion of civic virtue–but the population shows no signs of it at present.

  28. banger

    He’s bravely come out for 9/11 truth and he still gets to write for Counterpunch–who published this article even though they, like almost all the left believe that 9/11 truthers are deranged and crazy–Alex Cockburn wrote a horribly close-minded argument for the gov’t story. He ignored the fact that two of hi most respeced writers, Ray McGovern and Roberts were both “conspiracy nuts.” Also, to believe that 9/11 had anything to do with anyone in the government is way too huge a step for most people to take it just takes the floor from under everyone’s mythological/intellectual framework. I believe much of the refusal to examine the evidence is largely the work of people’s unconscious that seeks, above all, to protect the psyche from pain and depression.

  29. polm

    I don’t think that attacks on people’s civil liberties and general rights is tolerable, and, moreover, I don’t like the fact that what passes for debate these days is shrill, screaming and insulting discourse, and I don’t like the fact that dissent from the mainstream opinions on things, whatever they may be, is not tolerated.  This is happening more and more on the Left, as well as the Right, and it’s wrong, no matter what.

    Why should I be forced to give up what I’ve got and accept what’s coming?  Banger..I hate to say this, but I simply don’t agree with you, that’s all.

  30. tahoebasha3

    with capitalism in a so-called democracy.  How can you have rampant, unchecked, ungoverned capitalism and expect to have democracy at the same time?  I don’t know if I agree that “democracy is just abnormal . . . . .” in and of itself is really abnormal.  How would we really gauge it, since we’ve never had a true democracy, only small bits resembling democracy?  Myself, I prefer more socialistic ideas.  Why?  Because I think if a society (such as a number of European societies) is truly sophisticated, it would recognize that there will always be a small percentage of people that for whatever reason, will never be able to be totally self-sufficient, and simply figure that into the entire equation.  Moreover, education is a priority and is for everyone at minimal costs.  Healthcare necessary for everyone, etc.  Funny thing is the UN Human Rights spells out the rights of all people . . . . along these lines.

    Your last paragraph leaves me a little bewildered!  You seem to advocate “giving up” — just acquiesce to circumstances as they are.  I can’t go along with that.  Believe it or not, our voices have had some effect, even if not to any great extent, but we have been able to achieve some reversals of some situations, albeit, nowhere near that which we would like. “Giving up” leaves a clear path for whatever plans the oligarchs/MIC have.  Whatever!  But I do agree that the path we’re on will doom itself, ultimately!  

  31. polm

    that our government was complicit in allowing 9/11 to happen by ignoring warnings of imminent attacks by Al Qaeda and the vulnerability of skyscrapers, the lack of vigilance on the part of the USA, the cutting of anti-terrorist funding for the FBI, and the fact that the United States has spent too many years meddling in other countries’ affairs, and that somebody was bound to retaliate sooner or later.  

  32. tahoebasha3

    who would sub-consciously refuse to even consider the possibility that something was not right, probably, much like they couldn’t entertain the fact that JFK was more than likely killed by the CIA (read last 3 paragraphs of my post here, where Truman wrote about a month after the disaster).

    I’m sure you’ve had similar experiences, but if you try to suggest that 9/11 was “allowed to happen,” etc. to anyone, they look at you as though you’re nuts!

    Roberts speaks of 9/11 with absolute clarity and logic, so much so that what he says would be hard to refute in any way, shape or form!  Though, of course, there are those who would simply close their minds such that nothing would penetrate the very idea, no matter how friggin’ logical!

  33. polm

    but I still refuse to buy into the idea that 9/11 was an inside job.

  34. polm

    Highly unlikely, imo.  He was just a patsy for somebody or other, possibly the CIA, but no one really knows for sure.

  35. tahoebasha3

    I certainly agree with this:

    . . . .and the fact that the United States has spent too many years meddling in other countries’ affairs, and that somebody was bound to retaliate sooner or later.  

    Yes, what you say is so, however, if you haven’t read Roberts’ article yet, by doing so, you will note the absolute failure of just about every entity that would be involved as to 9/11, just for starters!  It is stunning!

  36. tahoebasha3

    thought, isn’t it?  

    Just for a moment, though, try to remove your inborne sense of patriotism, and consider the possibility . . . . if you can!

  37. tahoebasha3

    In reality, if the government “let it happen,” then it already is part of an “inside” job . . . . so the rest is a matter of to what extent.

    When people can commission torture, renditions, etc. to be performed on people (many of whom were caught in a “swoop” and innocent, even Bush admitted to that), even tortured to death, while in our custody, now at a known total of about 198 persons; when people can commission the bombings of the crops of other countries, the bombings of hospitals, destroy their infrastructure to the degree that there is barely enough clean water and no electricity for hours on end, particularly, in view of the extreme heat of some of the regions; when people can allow soldiers to walk into homes in the middle of the night and shoot and kill entire families; when people can commission the use of white phosphorus and depleted uranium (the dust of which remains in the air ad infinitum ) against ordinary citizens, causing rampant cancer and grotesque deformities in babies and these same people caused the deaths of over one million ordinary citizens, and displacement of millions, I can say that with those knowledges, I truly believe those people are capable of just about anything, including 9/11.

  38. banger

    If it’s coming what do you suggest we do? Head for the hills with AKs? I’m too old for that shit. We resist any way we can but we have to live with it. Anyhow I don’t think fascism will work here–the right wingers are just too stupid to pull it off–the corporate types are also in it for themselves and will end up fighting among each other–I think neo-feudalism is more likely and, as I’ve said many times, this gives us a chance to carve out a “space” or ourselves. The future is in creating networks and communities–that is the direction we have to go in. Don’t misunderstand me–I don’t want to live in a tyranny but we have to face the fact that the left has chosen not to play hardball politics and this is the result. I don’t thrown out of DailyKos because I suggested a little more of a hard-edge and they got hysterical.  

  39. banger

    My complaint has been, for a long time, that the left tends to live in a little fantasy land. The fantasy is that if only “the people” knew the truth they’d come join us. Well, they won’t and they haven’t and they aren’t going to. The way to power, if you’ve been following what I’ve said over the years is obvious. You create facts on the ground–powerful and well organized and disciplined networks that is focused on helping friends and punishing enemies–that means playing hardball not complaining and petitioning the powerful who feel free to ignore us. If you want to be influential and be consulted you have to make them feel pain when they hurt us–simple as that and the left has flat out refused to go that way. I don’t mean violence but other matters. Refuse to give your labor to the system. Organize workers and start cooperatives make a commitment to your fellows–don’t do business with the right-wingers. Since leftists tend to be more intelligent and skilled than most rightists this would hurt. But all of us prefer to think, still, that if the people only could be exposed to the truth….etc. The struggle continues!!

  40. tahoebasha3

    will note my mention of Truman and how he had written about the JFK killing, and alluded to the CIA.  He was somewhat spellbound to learn that the entity he created was acting contrary to the purposes he originally sought.  

  41. polm

    JFK got killed more towards the end of his Presidency, late in November, 1963.

  42. tahoebasha3

    Nowhere did I say that Truman was president when JFK was killed.  

    I mentioned an article Truman had published about a month after JFK’s killing.  

    See my article above:

    Well, of course, there are those people who would sub-consciously refuse to even consider the possibility that something was not right, probably, much like they couldn’t entertain the fact that JFK was more than likely killed by the CIA (read last 3 paragraphs of my post here, where Truman wrote about a month after the disaster).  

  43. polm

    doesn’t mean that I advocate heading for the hills with AK’s.  We’re going to have to resist it as best we can, and if it means more street protests, etc., so be it.  That may be the only choice right now.  

  44. banger

    But what I don’t see is what is required, i.e., an organized, disciplined and determined opposition to this regime/system. Furthermore there is not even a glimmer of that opposition developing. My take on that is simple–as long as the left insists on sermonizing and “demonstrating” it is wasting its time and efforts–the majority don’t care. Americans had a chance to put their thumbs up to Occupy–and though I don’t really respect Occupy much they showed they were determined and got on the news and started the debate on the whole dichotomy between the 1% and the rest of us. What did the public do? It said, well maybe, but once it saw that the demonstrators were largely bohos (who else would have the guts to do what Occupy did?) they turned thumbs down.

    The way to make a difference is to do what groups always do to get influence–use power to make your enemies suffer and your friends thrive. Look at AIPAC, the labor movement, civil rights, Miami Cubans and so on. All these groups played hardball politics and then some to get their point across–they didn’t just complain or beg someone–if someone crossed them they made a noise–all used very different tactics but all were in it for the long run. The left in the U.S. has pretty much abandoned ship which is the chief reason why the country has moved so dramatically to the right.

    The American people need to respect the left. One reason, other than cultural differences, that Americans did not support Occupy because they saw the movement was not well-organized or disciplined–people may oppose you but they respect strength and will negotiate with you if you can claim some ground. No one is going to support a movement that does not inspire some kind of awe. This movement must also make sure its members thrive. For example, do business only with those that support you when possible–not as a matter of individual conscience but as a matter of collective policy. Leftists in this country think that disorganization and spontenaiety is enough to be rebellious–that’s fine when you’re a kid but this is real life and there should be a balance between order and chaos–and this the left and, particularly, Occupy was unable to understand. It lacked organization and thus it dissolved as all systems do that lack order.

  45. polm

    I believe that this is the Left’s biggest downfall and the reason that the Right’s been winning in this country for so long.

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