Rethinking the Greens

I've been a 3rd party advocate for a long time. Now though (4.00 / 2)

& especially after the latest Supreme Court travesty, it's really past time to turn away from electoral politics as an instrument of change and towards strikes, protests, consumer actions (like maybe boycotting banks) , work stoppages, real unions (IWW maybe) -- that sort of thing.  

Look at Greece.  They've got the government running scared.

The American electoral system is one of the most corrupt anywhere in the world--we gain nothing by focusing so much energy on it.  

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by: wilberforce @ Mon Feb 08, 2010 at 17:32:01 PM CST

rhetorically impressive ... (4.00 / 1)

towards strikes, protests, consumer actions (like maybe boycotting banks) , work stoppages, real unions (IWW maybe)

However, we lack the organizations to carry out the above.  Unions?  Then you're talking about a long-term slog before there would be any payoff like you advocate.

I agree what elections are overly fetishized, but you have no "getting from here to there."

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by: jeffroby @ Mon Feb 08, 2010 at 17:40:10 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Well, we've been trying the election (4.00 / 2)

approach for decades and decades, and it's clearly failed.

Really badly failed to.

We have no say in government whatsoever, even after an election that any honest observer can see was driven by the populace moving to the left-really wanting to go left, like no time since maybe the 30s.  But, the only tangible result, is that now the fake Palin run teabaggers get to claim that they are reformers.  

There will always be one or two Sanders and Kucinichs, but no more.

Real change in the US has never come from elected officials--it's come from fear of strikers, fear of monetary based actions and so on.

Whether it's a long term slog, depends on how we react now, what the economy does, and how the wars go, and a lot of other factors, so I'm not going to read the tea leaves, but clearly the playing by their rules thing is a diversion, and it won't ever work.  

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by: wilberforce @ Mon Feb 08, 2010 at 18:21:05 PM CST

[ Parent ]

This is written as if the ... (4.00 / 1)

... decades of the 80's and 90's and the decades of the teens and twenties are expected to involve the same degree of opportunity for victory.

Having studied Latin American history a bit in my earlier years, I'd say we achieved some quite substantial victories of the sort on offer in the 80's and 90's, arriving at 2008 without any effective willingness on the part of a large number of colonels to back an authoritarian dictatorship.

Of course we shouldn't play by their rules, but it would be extremely oversimplified to argue that because they have a certain type of sham electoral system that is their goal, that not playing by their rules eliminates small-d democratic electoral politics as a part of a strategy that refuses to play by their rules.

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by: BruceMcF @ Mon Feb 08, 2010 at 23:10:58 PM CST

[ Parent ]

While I agree enough with what you say (4.00 / 4)

to rec your comment, I still think participating in elections is a valuable tool that the progressive movement should not give up on entirely.  Obviously, the electoral system is rigged, so expecting to win office with third party candidates is usually unrealistic.  But that does not mean that we should just give up on electoral politics, take our marbles and go home.

Corrupt as it may be, the American electoral system still offers many opportunities to parties willing to organize and run candidates to put their views forth and talk to regular people.  This activity has an inherently wider scope than strikes, protests, union work, etc.--in all of the latter your contact is limited to certain groups of people concerned with the immediate issue at hand.  But run a candidate in an election, and you get to talk with all these activist groups, and with members of the public who are not activists, but are interested in public issues enough to consider voting.  It is a forum that is there, ready made, and as long as we have access to it we should use it.  

Short version: even if you do not win office, an electoral campaign offers opportunities to make friends, influence people and educate the public, all of which are worth doing.

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by: left field @ Mon Feb 08, 2010 at 22:32:23 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Exactly!!! (4.00 / 1)

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by: jeffroby @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 00:09:54 AM CST

[ Parent ]

What I'm suggesting is a shift in emphasis (0.00 / 0)

We have been so focused on electoral politics, that we've entirely forgotten that there are other things.

I'm not saying that there isn't a reason to do some of that--look at the amount of publicity a Kucinich or Gravel got, even with no expectation of directly effecting change that way.

But there are other things that will work better than pouring all our resources into something that cannot really ever compete with the Republicrat monolith.  

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by: wilberforce @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 08:24:12 AM CST

[ Parent ]

This I agree with (4.00 / 2)

I would slightly recast what you are saying, though.  One of the differences between electoral politics now and electoral politics in the 30's is that the progressive forces had a base among the unions and the unemployed councils, with the CP giving it a cohesion.

With no ORGANIZED base to represent, we are reduced to beggars.  The impotence of electoral politics today isn't a matter of electoral politics, per se, but that lack of base.

Did you read my piece Action and Avalanche?  It is a small discussion of taking action from where we are today, since the "strikes, protests, consumer actions (like maybe boycotting banks), work stoppages, real unions (IWW maybe)" you advocate."

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by: jeffroby @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 12:07:31 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Need to build that base. We need to rethink (0.00 / 0)

the way we are doing business entirely- including things such as you suggest there.

We need do things that are media oriented (like Greenpeace 'actions') , that are education oriented (like challenging what is taught in American schools) , that are work, worker and unionist in scope, and that are consumer based.  

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by: wilberforce @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 12:50:31 PM CST

[ Parent ]

You can also add nifty buttons and bumper stickers to your collection (4.00 / 2)

Don't forget that!

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by: metamars @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 10:09:53 AM CST

[ Parent ]

My neighbor is a Green (0.00 / 0)

and a Nadar voter in 2000. Her car is covered with bumper stickers. She went to hear Nadar speak at a Greens function  in 2004 and said he was so full of himself and crazy that she wanted no part of the Greens anymore. Her Nadar sticker read 'Don't blame me I voted for Nadar'. She ripped off the 'Don't' and it now reads 'Blame me I voted for Nadar'.      

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by: Shaharazade @ Wed Feb 10, 2010 at 10:35:50 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I only vote 3rd party (4.00 / 3)

It doesn't even really matter which 3rd party to me. I haven't voted the Democratic ticket since 1992.
  I am registered Green, but I am just as likely to vote Peace and Freedom, or Libertarian, or something else.

 The Republican Party is the party of the wealthy elite and status quo. The Democratic Party is the party of sell-outs and wanna-be Republicans.
  Both parties want you to be so discouraged as to not vote at all. What neither of them want is for you to vote for a 3rd party candidate.  

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by: gjohnsit @ Mon Feb 08, 2010 at 17:38:28 PM CST

so you have nothing specific to say? (4.00 / 2)

... about the above?  I'm not asking what anyone votes for.  I'm asking for specifics on the party-building process.

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by: jeffroby @ Mon Feb 08, 2010 at 17:42:30 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Party building: (4.00 / 3)

Nader really fucked the Greens by not joining, or building anything. Theh they screwed themselves by splitting into two.  

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by: wilberforce @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 12:52:12 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Thanks for thinking about this (4.00 / 4)

I've been thinking about what you said, too.

I'm going to be helping a few Greens campaign, potentially, in the next year.  A union organizer and friend of mine is running for state legislature as a Green in Philadelphia.  I think he's one of the more viable Green candidates I've ever seen just because of his union organizing experience and personality.  Money might be a problem, though.  So I'm going to give Green politics a shot and see what happens.

I also might be helping Jesse Johnson run for West Virginia House of Delegates as a Green (Mountain Party is their name there), but that depends on how much money he raises over the next week.  He ran for president in 2008 but lost the Green nomination, then got 4.6% as the Mountain Party's candidate for governor and was endorsed by groups like the Sierra Club because he was the only anti-coal candidate.

Greens are not always the answer.  Just like Democrats, Republicans, and everything else.  However, sometimes they are the answer.  Look at Illinois - they're a growing presence in Chicago and Illinois because of the Democrats' corruption.  This is the key to the Greens (and other parties like them, like the Vermont Progressives, who are generally the most successful third party in the country):  the places they do best are one-party big cities.  They can become the second party in some areas, especially where Democrats are corrupt or becoming negligent because of permanent supermajorities.

And just a note about those Green Party member numbers:  they're off.  Those might be dues-paying members (I know that's how the Libertarian Party counts its members), but there are many more registered Greens around the nation than that.  How many?  No one knows because they're not tracked in every state.

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by: rossl @ Mon Feb 08, 2010 at 17:49:01 PM CST

Very interesting (4.00 / 1)

the places they do best are one-party big cities.

When I was working with Commoner's Citizens Party, they never got a foothold in big cities, were instead sucked into the Democratic Part orbit (with Commoner's eager complicity).  Where it was able to take hold if only for a while was in small towns.

I'm not surprised if the numbers are off.  The Greens have a high recognition factor and sympathy.  Question is organizational strength.  A breakaway candidate will have higher recognition, will the Greens benefit, be overwhelmed, abstain?

Glad you're in there.

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by: jeffroby @ Mon Feb 08, 2010 at 17:55:18 PM CST

[ Parent ]

One more thing (4.00 / 7)

I think if the Greens change their perception they could do themselves a huge service.  They're largely seen, I believe, as to the left of Democrats (as you suggested) and as a single issue party.  However, from what I've seen they're more about progressive populism and left libertarianism (although there's certainly other stuff in there too).  And I think if they can utilize the populist sentiment that's out there right now they can really use that to their advantage.

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by: rossl @ Mon Feb 08, 2010 at 18:01:04 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Yes, a substantial slice of ... (4.00 / 4)

... "Real Jobs are Green Jobs - the Republicans are in the back pocket of Exxon and the Democrats don't know how. Vote Green" ... would go a ways.

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by: BruceMcF @ Mon Feb 08, 2010 at 23:13:53 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I don't know the Greens any better than you do ... (4.00 / 4)

... at least, not the American Greens (I might know something about the Ozzie greens, and I might just think I do).

However, I do know a little bit about the electoral calendar. Its a mid-term election. And at least in Ohio, I have the opportunity to vote in the Democratic primaries and even to volunteer for selected Democratic candidates without being a member of the Democratic party.

And I have the opportunity to volunteer or otherwise work for a Green candidate in some other race at the same time.

I could, indeed, vote Green in any available race where "my vote", or rather the vote of myself and anybody like me, is unlikely to affect the outcome of the race between the Republican and Democrat, as well as in races where the Democrat is too odious to consider voting for.

Now, some of youse, your votes don't matter to the Pierson's Puppeteer headed mainstream party because you'll not vote for either in any event. But a strategic vote that routinely votes for the most radical or progressive choice available in Democratic primaries, routinely votes Green in general election contests when the issue is not in doubt just to build up the Green vote tally, and is also repellable by a sufficiently odious Democrat no matter how odious the Republican may be, ...

... that only needs to grow into the single digits in any electoral area to start entering into political calculations. And there are lots of electoral areas of the country where the left of the left (or perhaps rather to the left of the center-right that in America we call the center-left) number in the single digit percentages or more.

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by: BruceMcF @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 00:31:45 AM CST

You've got the idea (4.00 / 2)

In other words you're describing the inside-outside approach.  Personally, I'm pursuing the inside track, but it would be meaningless if others weren't pursuing the outside track.

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by: jeffroby @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 00:56:05 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Yes - one thing social media tools do ... (4.00 / 3)

... is make it easy to argue endlessly about which single strategy is the one strategy that rules them all, one strategy to find them, one strategy to bring them in, and in the darkness guide them ...

... while at the same time making it far easier to pursue multiple tracks.

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by: BruceMcF @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 10:37:47 AM CST

[ Parent ]

while I have my preferences ... (4.00 / 3)

... for instance the Full Court Press, my orientation is to encourage activity.  As long as people are arguing endlessly, there is no getting off the dime.  Once people start trying to actualize their plans, what works and what doesn't is exposed, and if many things work, then there is something to unite other than abstractions.

Did you see my pieces on method?  part 1 and part 2.

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by: jeffroby @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 12:00:01 PM CST

[ Parent ]

On your closing question of part 2 ... (0.00 / 0)

...

how do we translate our electronic presence into material force?

... that's the same question I ask under the heading of Burning the Midnight Oil for Breaking the Silicon Cage.

One thing to bear in mind is that to win, it may be necessary to put a stake through the heart of one of the two entrenched parties, as the nascent Republican party put a stake through the heart of the Whigs.

And as the Republican party was formed from a range of existing distinct groups, including the anti-slavery Whigs purged from the party by an alliance of the pro-slavery and slavery-tolerant Whigs, two essential elements of that may be the existence of the organized groups on the one hand, to provide the bargaining partners to the foundation coalition platform, and the dynamic element of a wing of one of the existing entrenched major parties being purged from the party.

We need active leadership groups, firmly and institutionally entrenched outside of the veal pen, to represent each of the core interests in the progressive change coalition.

In the context of third party politics, that means a Green party, a Workers party, a Political and Economic Freedom party, a progressive Farm and Country party, and a Progressive Business Chamber.

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by: BruceMcF @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 13:52:03 PM CST

[ Parent ]

and what do you mean by "party"?` (0.00 / 0)

It has come to be synonymous with electoral, but that was not always the case.  At the turn of the last century, parties used to actually debate whether to participate in elections.

If "Green party, a Workers party, a Political and Economic Freedom party, a progressive Farm and Country party, and a Progressive Business Chamber" were ALL electoral, the splintering of the vote would be fatal.  The dynamic, whether intentional or not, would be to set segment against segment, are gays more important than women than Blacks than Latinos than unions, etc?

In fact, this is what we have now under the Democratic umbrella.  I wouldn't want to replicate that in the independent realm.

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by: jeffroby @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 14:16:16 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Certainly not all electoral ... (4.00 / 1)

... indeed, a Business Chamber is normally never electoral, and a progressive Business Chamber itself requires such a dramatic reversal in habits of thought as small business sell out their own interests in support of profits of large corporations that that is a wrenching enough institutional change.

A progressive Farm and Country party would normally be contesting in districts that the others would have difficulty organizing in, so there's little splintering of the vote there. We are talking, after all, first and foremost about electing state legislators.

As far as a green party, a workers party, and a political and economic freedom party, I'd think we already have existing candidate parties for each, and the key to avoiding electoral splintering would be a coalition agreement to not run against each other in districts where one party has reached a certain threshold of success. Since all of these parties will have resource limitations, that could well be an agreement that does not chafe.

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by: BruceMcF @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 14:42:38 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Good thinking (4.00 / 1)

Violet Socks is trying to create a party called the Justice Party, and some of the people around her are also considering creating a women's party.  They are good people.

http://www.reclusiveleftist.com/

And there has been an interesting discussing where I've posted this on Corrente, then continued here.

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by: jeffroby @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 15:23:26 PM CST

[ Parent ]

And I should note that under the Green Party's ... (4.00 / 1)

... ten core principles, they could be both the Green Party and the Political and Economic Freedom party, which would further reduce electoral splintering.

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by: BruceMcF @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 14:45:07 PM CST

[ Parent ]

And probably should further note ... (0.00 / 0)

... that there is no guarantee whether or not actual adherence to the Green Party's 10 core principles is possible without taking over the Green Party in pursuit of that.

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by: BruceMcF @ Wed Feb 10, 2010 at 23:38:11 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Depending on where you live in Ohio, (4.00 / 2)

there could be viable Green candidates running near you.  And then wouldn't it make sense to support them this year as well as Democrats?

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by: rossl @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 14:17:03 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Near me is ... (4.00 / 1)

... very near ... in range of where the Kent/Ravenna interurban bus corridor reaches and how far my pedals can take me. There may be some in Kent.

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by: BruceMcF @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 14:46:27 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Just to put my cards on the table (4.00 / 6)

I have no opinion on taking over the Greens or joining them.

Many of my hopes lie outside traditional politics entirely.

Where my political hopes rest, however, is a Green/Progressive/Left-Independent alliance.  In fact I would even call it the Alliance For Progressive Change (APC).  The interface with traditional politics would be as a party, but the organization would be transpartisan in the sense of being a confederation of leftist parties under a national umbrella.

Green candidates could be APC candidates.  So could socialists or Democratic Progressives, provided they stuck with the platform, which would be a subset of the various leftist parties' platforms.

One could be a Green for example and also be an APC candidate.

Make a promise, take a vow, and trust your feelings, it's easy now, understand the voice within, and feel a change, already beginning - Moody Blues, The Voice

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by: AndyS In Colorado @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 01:19:49 AM CST

That alliance could arise de facto (4.00 / 2)

not necessarily with a single organizatonal vehicle.  It would be held together "from below."

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by: jeffroby @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 02:56:08 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Here's an idea for you (4.00 / 1)

Because fusion voting is illegal in all but 8 states, an APC party, or even APC alliance, cannot have the same power in most states that it would, e.g., in NY, where fusion voting is legal.

However, IVCS is on the horizon. This will allow for a sort of de facto fusion voting, carried out before real-world voting, and early enough so that real-world voters can switch their registrations to the member party of the APC that won the online, IVCS election.

What you could do even before IVCS is operational is to proselytize the idea, and try to get a cruder implementation going. You'd probably want to pick districts where such a strategy makes the most sense. E.g., let's say that you find a district (if you're thinking of national elections) where registered Dems roughly equal registered Repubs, but there is a large bloc of independents, many of whom lean towards the Green Party, e.g.. Let's suppose, further, that the Green Party is on the ballot.

While it's unlikely (I believe) that the Dem 'pros' would do anything to help the Green party, even at the expense of a lost election, I believe that rank-and-file Dem voters will not be so ruthless.

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by: metamars @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 10:28:58 AM CST

[ Parent ]

The prelude to this is a coalition agreement ... (0.00 / 0)

... where two or more third parties agree to a level of support at which a member of the coalition gets a shot at the next election with the other third parties focusing on other contests.

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by: BruceMcF @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 13:54:18 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I like what I've heard about the Working Families Party. (4.00 / 2)

They aren't active yet in as many states as the Greens, but they seem to have had more success in the places where they are active. Ultimately, though, whether we get behind an existing party or form a new one, we're going to have to come up with a strategy for dealing with the institutional barriers that have been erected against minor parties before we get any serious traction - liberalizing ballot access laws, and trying to get electoral fusion and voting system reform passed. This could be done through the initiative/referendum process in some places, but will require action by state legislatures in others.

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by: Big Tex @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 09:00:53 AM CST

Which means that the first strategic goal in many states ... (4.00 / 1)

... is to win a balance of power position in the state legislature, from which point electoral reform is the price for support for an agreed set of politics.

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by: BruceMcF @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 10:40:15 AM CST

[ Parent ]

A lot of traditional third party activists (4.00 / 2)

resent them because they're so comfortable partnering with Democrats.  However, they're very interesting and their strategy might be very good, as long as they don't become corrupt (which looks like it might be a possibility in some places).

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by: rossl @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 14:16:28 PM CST

[ Parent ]

of course they're corrupt ... (0.00 / 0)

... it being a corrupt world.  That's beside the point as to whether they are usable.

That said, yes, they play the game and it's a serious question as to how enmeshed they are.  On the other hand, I suspect that this "lot of traditional third party activists" are sectarian over a party that could cut into their turf.

In the absence of social movement.  Corruption and  sectarianism are givens.  What I pose is whether there will be sufficient movement off the 2012 primaries to transform the situation.  If there is, we need to be ready for it.  If there isn't, then we're fucked in any event.

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by: jeffroby @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 14:20:46 PM CST

[ Parent ]

It's not sectarianism (0.00 / 0)

Like I said, it's that they don't like them partnering with Democrats.  I wasn't really addressing what you're talking about, I was just talking more generally.

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by: rossl @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 14:25:55 PM CST

[ Parent ]

possibly multiple motives (4.00 / 1)

Yes, there are valid reasons to be wary of the WFP, and as I said, "it's a serious question as to how enmeshed they are."  But we have to consider whether that judgment is also tainted by left sectarianism, not yours but theirs.  The various left parties have common interests, but they are de facto in competition with each other.  Certainly, if the WFP moved into a state where the Greens were strong, there would be a competitive reaction.

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by: jeffroby @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 14:31:15 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Absolutely (4.00 / 1)

They're establishing a chapter in Vermont now, which should be interesting, because there's already a successful Progressive Party there, one that doesn't do fusion.  However, it doesn't seem like the Progressives are reacting negatively, because currently one of their state representatives is sponsoring a bill that would make fusion more effective for the WFP's strategy.

I should clarify, too - part of the reason I don't think most of it is sectarianism is that a lot of Libertarians I've talked to also don't like WFP's strategy.

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.org!

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by: rossl @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 15:30:10 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Working Families Party of Oregon (4.00 / 1)

here in OR came to my door last night to ask for money for a program they are working on with the state for green jobs partially funded by the stimulus and the state. Their a PAC as well as a party. They are also working with gubernatorial candidates to establish a bank of Oregon so that Oregon's money would not be held in the two bigs. They actively work with the AFLCIO via Working America, and helped pass a into law a ballot measure that levied taxes on corporations and those who make over 250,000. The are not as the woman said a 'spoiler party' and when not running a candidate endorse the best of the field offered. I'm thinking of joining this party, my main reservation is primary voting which is the only part of elections where you actually have a chance with a decent candidate, especially local and state. They seem to be gathering new members and support here as this state is becoming more and more populist, and moving left and green.    

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by: Shaharazade @ Wed Feb 10, 2010 at 10:57:40 AM CST

[ Parent ]

What would joining mean? (4.00 / 1)

You could be registered Democrat and vote for whomever in the general.  Or would you be interested in being a party activist?  If not, why give up your primary vote?

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by: jeffroby @ Wed Feb 10, 2010 at 11:37:44 AM CST

[ Parent ]

exactly (4.00 / 2)

That is why other then a symbolic gesture it's pointless. I did become a member of their PAC. I like your diary as it seems, at least here in OR, the fractious left which came together to defeat the Republicans after the Bush coup is not at all happy with either party. In a weird way Obama's administration is uniting the 'left of the left with labor, and even the rank and file county Democratic voters. My county Democratic party in 2000 got a huge input of new blood. Kerry couldn't get the lefties or the young un's as they thought he was Machine and 'Coke or Pepsi' but like me they came together for Obama. When I quit his campaign after the FISA vote my precinct campaign boss told me the the movement that he engendered was in reality much more important then his election. Lot's of people quit but still voted for him. I think she's right. I think working both in and out of the Democratic party is the key.

Third parties are important if they can form coalitions, as they seem to be doing here. People are pissed and they are more willing to listen to alternatives that offer the Dems a challenge and a message. Passing the ballot initiative,  for taxes was a totally grassroots populist accomplishment. It brought together the unions, the Greens, all the various factions plus the rank and file Democrats. They organized and collected the money to push it through. The new coalitions I see are not ideological but more grass roots modeled and populist.  

Keep in mind that my district is solid Democratic and so liberal the as my state house member said 'Che himself would have trouble getting elected'. If however we work third parties and form coalitions with the populist Democrats many who joined and participated to get out the Bushies and are pissed at what is going on, including independents, the left of the left can and will be effective. Most Democrats even the so called moderates are not party loyalists they just feel they have no viable choice. As my boss said the movement that got Obama in is rife with new coalitions both in and out of the two party stranglehold. It's working here and would elsewhere.

I also think that both parties like to keep that voter pool small as it's easier to limit 'change' and keeps the dreaded populists or fringe from electing people outside the machine. I'm going today at noon to hear Dr. Dean speak at a fund raiser priced at twenty dollars (affordable) for Bill Bradbury who's running for governor and is definitely  progressive and green. I am amazed that he is doing so well as in 04 he ran against Gordon Smith and the DSCC basically undermined his campaign through lack of funding and ideological control via 'advisers' they hoisted on him. This time around he's doing it his way.                    

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by: Shaharazade @ Wed Feb 10, 2010 at 12:43:20 PM CST

[ Parent ]

My broad bottom line, as it is developing ... (4.00 / 1)

Whether you are inside or outside (or both) be a MEMBER of an organization that could be in play around the 2012 primaries, be in position to push that organization to work across the Dem/Independent divide when the time comes.  Be ready to leave if they won't.

I've got my little plan.  I just can't be everywhere.

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by: jeffroby @ Wed Feb 10, 2010 at 16:09:55 PM CST

[ Parent ]

By the way, (4.00 / 2)

this is the sort of discussion we should be having.

Moving beyond the Democrats is still tough for many people, but it's really needed.  

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by: wilberforce @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 12:53:21 PM CST

Think Districts? (4.00 / 2)

In the US we elect by state districts and districts can be at wide variance to a state's reputation -- perceived or actual.  And at the district level a certain amount of the "fluff and cruft¹" one finds at the national, or even the state, level sort of goes away.

If one can put any reliance on the issue polling Kos has been doing the citizens are Center Left - to some degree - while the governing is Center Right.  What that suggests is if a modicum of effort is made to tailor a message and narrative in a properly chosen district running a candidate that doesn't have his/her head up their ass an insurgent candidate has a shot at winning.  I'm thinking particularly here of Tennessee 5th (Nashville) represented (sic) by the odious Jim Cooper.  

Quick Reference here:

Demographics are a major factor behind the Democrats' near-absolute dominance of the political scene. Many conservative white voters (including Nashville natives) have increasingly moved out of Metro Nashville/Davidson County to more "family-friendly" Republican suburban counties such as Williamson and Sumner. They have been replaced largely by liberal-oriented constituencies such as students (and alumni) of the Nashville area's several colleges and universities, music industry professionals (especially in the growing non-country genres), and white-collar professionals, in a manner similar to that of cities such as Atlanta, Raleigh/Durham, and Austin. In the entire state, only Memphis has anything like a sizable constituency of progressive-minded whites that Nashville has. The clout of Nashville's African-American electorate, a traditionally Democratic constituency, has grown steadily in recent years as well.

Generally, the 5th is one of three seats in Tennessee that are usually not seriously contested by Republicans (the others being the 8th and 9th districts).

¹ Cruft (n) that stuff you find between your toes when you take your socks off after a hard day's sweating.  ;-)

_There's nothing Nietzsche couldn't teach ya 'bout the raising of the wrist._

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by: ATinNM @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 18:26:59 PM CST

I think you are on the right track but it's different than mine (4.00 / 1)

I think the Greens are worth a second look. But in the end, I just don't feel they address the fundamentals. They are a liberal/left party and I'm almost permanently disillusioned with the left/liberal position in this country.

Unfortunately I've come closer to the Libertatian position which is the only political critique that deals with the actual situation in this country. Government may not have started that way, but at present it IS the enemy of progressive forces in this country. Thus, I now oppose all government intervention in our lives -- at least for awhile until we get rid of the horror that is the Federal and most state governments. We must deconstruct government to it's most simple functions as per the Libertarian position. Not as a "final state" but as the beginnings of a truly progressive and non-coercive state which could emerge out of a deconstructed state.

So color me a "tear down the system" person. It's time for it to dissolve it does nothing but steal from us. The too-big-to-fail mentality was the final straw for me. Why should we pay taxes for a government that does nothing but kill people abroad and steal money from it's citizens to "give to their criminal friends on Wall Street". Let's work to end it not enhance it through the endless minutae of political correctness that is the Green Party which has no theoretical underpinning to its positions. I'm tired of that kind of thinking. If it was a marxist party using good marxian analysis I'd respect it more -- I fly the black-flag today -- I think we citizens can handle our own lives and organize to help the poor if we weren't so bogged down by absurd regulations which I encounter everywhere I turn.

Visit me at Sacred Bells

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by: banger @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 18:50:45 PM CST

thoughtful (0.00 / 0)

But let me ask you this.  If there is a major primary challenge to Obama in 2012, followed by a significant breakawy force following the Democratic convention, how would you relate to that?  Would YOUR correctness leave you standing aloof, or is there a way for you to use it to further tear down the system?

for a Full Court Press!

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by: jeffroby @ Tue Feb 09, 2010 at 20:01:53 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I don't see the base in the state legislatures to support that. (0.00 / 0)

It seems premature by four years, optimistically. Three State and Federal House races to build is little time, especially as much has time has been wasted already in the first of the three ... a strong insurgent progressive populist Democratic Presidential primary challenge in 2016, and if purged then the primary challenge continues through the General Election.

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by: BruceMcF @ Wed Feb 10, 2010 at 23:46:19 PM CST

[ Parent ]