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Friday Night at 8: There's A New Voice to be Heard

by: Nightprowlkitty

Fri Dec 07, 2007 at 17:00:00 PST        
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I'm trying to figure out how to write about why I started blogging over at the Great Orange Satan on immigration.

There's so much information I have packed into my poor brain over the past several months, that I don't know where to begin.

Guess perhaps I should start at the beginning!

Ok, will do.

kyledeb's The Correct Term is Migrant on August 22.  

It is impossible to have a real conversation about immigration in the U.S. if people can't even agree on the terminology that they are debating with. Conservatives automatically become hostile when they read or hear the word "undocumented immigrant", and progressives often call people that use the term "illegal alien" racists. Both terms are incorrect.

When describing the 12 million people that have illegally immigrated into the U.S. the best term to use is the word "migrant". Although I wouldn't be surprised if people opposed this, this shouldn't be a controversial claim. The rest of the world uses the term migrant to describe people that immigrate into the country illegally. The BBC uses the word migrant. So does Prensa Libre, Guatemala's main newspaper. The list goes on and on.

Immigration is actually a U.S.-centric term. An immigrant is someone who migrates into your country, an emigrant describes someone who migrates out of your country, but the accurate term to describe this population from a global perspective is migrant. It flies in the face of the U.S. citizen ego, but most migrants come to the U.S. with the intention of returning, and many do. Migration describes their movements better than immigration does.

The typical comment:

You can respectfully disagree

with the actual definitions of words all you want.

But using your special definitions of words instead of the generally agreed upon definitions will achieve only one thing - guaranteeing that you will not effectively communicate with anyone who does not already agree with you.

My very first comment was a response to Mariachi Mama's comment:

sorry too late to tip or rec nt

To which I added one of my most insightful comments:

ditto. nt.
Nightprowlkitty :: Friday Night at 8: There's A New Voice to be Heard
'Course, I didn't know then that kyledeb had his own site, which is now called Citizen Orange and has a great new look thanks to Nezua over at The Unapologetic Mexican.

Frankly, I didn't even know kyledeb was male!  I thought the screen name meant "her" name was "Deb!"

Later, I learned differently.

I thought Kyle had a hell of a lot of nerve telling Kossacks what to say and how to say it.  I thought he would probably be killed in the comments and that would be that.

Well that didn't happen, even though to this day there are fierce battles.  I've been in the thick of many of them, being the cantankerous self-appointed Nightprowlkitty: SuperKitty of Justice!, lol.

What happened to me is that I got educated.  As a certain SmartyPants (a/k/a Pandora for real!) would say, I got "taken to school."  And I have missed very few classes since.

If someone could grab the picture at the upper lefthand of the screen at Migra Matters of the very cool graphic "Illegal Is Not A Noun," I would appreciate it, being tech challenged at posting pictures.

I've written before about the diversosphere, but what I have forgotten to mention is that these folks are cutting edge when it comes to taking you to school.  What you'd have to pay thousands of dollars for in academia (and probably still end up clueless), is offered here for free, and in a much hipper style than academia can provide.  Because it's not just education one gets at these sites, but activism, understanding, breaking through the mind-control so many of us have suffered from for so many years, and top of the minute news on these issues as well.

The other day a poster I have been battling at length with finally used the word "undocumented migrant" instead of his/her preferred "illegals."

Is that the most important thing, the words we use?  Ah, to me, every detail comprises THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, because they are all pieces of value in a difficult and puzzling battle.  The words we use are the most important thing, because we all care about people and don't want to call them names that will make them feel they are not equal to us.  The issues are the most important thing because we can't change the laws and push our Dem Representatives to do the right thing if we don't know what we want them to do.

The people putting out this information in this way are the most important thing because without them there is no chance to win any battles at all.  Heh.

And the people who are suffering are the most important thing, the children separated from their parents, folks feeling terror in the night, folks exactly like you and me, who are being treated as though their humanity has a lesser value.

I felt pulled in two directions when I started understanding this issue.  My first allegiance, I felt, was to write about New Orleans, and I would feel guilty at not writing more about NOLA when I was busy making comments in immigration diaries.  As yet I have not written a diary on this subject, I still need more education.  But I felt conflicted.

Then I realized both of those issues were about the same thing.  Yeah, social justice.

Duke is the one to read on the issues, the legislation, the ways to frame this conversation that seem so obvious and easy to understand that I forget for a brief merciful moment that what he's writing hasn't ALWAYS been part of the Democratic rhetoric.  Oh wait, it isn't part of the Democratic rhetoric at all.  Ack.

Kyle and Nezua are two of the freshest and exciting voices in the blogosphere on this issue, with both fabulous style and great substance and a lot of heart.  And Kyle posts at Daily Kos, as well as Duke.  This is an amazing ability, I think, given the stubborness of Kossacks that "WE KNOW ALL THERE IS TO BE KNOWN!  YOU ARE A BOUNDER AND A POLTROON, DARING TO DEFY OUR CONVENTIONAL WISDOM!" - or something like that.  And to be honest, there are a hell of a lot of folks who post at Daily Kos that I wouldn't lightly argue with, as they know their stuff inside out.  So there is a real challenge there, not just an empty-headed one.

So that was the beginning of how I got into blogging (comments only) on the issue of immigration and the Democratic Party's really lame and limp rhetoric on it.  Rahm Emmanuel!  Yes, you, Rahm!  Your days are numbered, Mr. Emmanuel, and Americans will once again inject some common sense into that part of the Beltway that needs it most!
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Friday Night at 8: There's A New Voice to be Heard | 50 comments
So that's that. (4.00 / 14)

From an earlier discussion: (4.00 / 2)
terminology

"We can't change the country. Let us change the subject." Stephen Dedalus in Ulysses, by James Joyce(1922).  
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the reminder! (4.00 / 1)
You know, I wonder who put that language in at the time.  After all, at one time our laws spoke of slavery as a legal term.  And then there was MANIFEST DESTINY! (a grand old belief, heh).

Also, of course, words change their meaning and gain or lose power over time and I find that interesting as well.

[ Parent ]
migrants (4.00 / 6)
As you well know, this is a racism issue.  O'Reilly isn't complaining about the cute Irish girls that sneak into the country and work as nannies for the rich and the super rich.  No, they want to keep others out of here.

When you brought up NOLA, you used the term civil rights to combine the issues.  More accurate would be  "victims of viscious prejudice."  Americans were always nativists--except when it came to native Americans.  A couple of years ago the code word was bilingualism.  Now it's illegal immigrants. McCarthy used unAmerican.

Language is very important.  I worked in the GHETTOS of Bed/Stuy and the South Bronx.  They're not "inner cities"--they are ghettos--most residents are forced by economic and educational restraints to live there.  Guess what?  These areas have a lot of color, very little white is evident--except for the civil servants and the shopkeepers.  That's true throughout the country--it's not the inner city, it's the "colored section" dressed up with a new name.  Disgusting.

Race ... (4.00 / 4)
... is an absolutely central fact of this issue.  Simply can't get around it.

Communicating that to folks who still wish to drink the Kool-Aid is an entirely different kettle of fish!

I wrote an essay about this a few weeks ago -- how folks are almost terrified of being called racist.  To me and those like me, it is not an ambiguous notion, we are a racist society.  I haven't destroyed my racism, but I work to fight it within myself every day, and fight others' complacency on this as well when it comes to the blogs.

That's why the "new voices" I am referring to in my essay are so astonishing to me -- they are actually changing minds.  I've seen it (in the bloggy trenches, heh) and am very impressed.

[ Parent ]
except (4.00 / 1)
Only liberals change their minds--conservatives are pigheaded and try to change/ridicule liberals.  You basically only read liberal blogs.  BTW, changing ones mind isn't always a good thing--Schumer used to be good--as was Pelosi.  Even Romney and Giuliani were better than they are now.
[ Parent ]
Agree, for the most part. (4.00 / 4)
But, and I hate to say this, there are more than a few Kossacks who are very conservative on this issue and not only pig-headed but combative.  Now perhaps that is still soft and fuzzy compared to a Repub, but I don't think so.

What I do think is different is that the forum is liberal, so conservative thinking is at a disadvantage, not that it is not present in the argument.

I wish our media, politicians and fellow citizens (save that 28%) would have such a forum, i.e., our society getting back on track.

That's why I'm excited over these new voices -- they don't say things that buy into the RW frame, so even conservatives can't exactly figure out how to respond.

I think if our Dem reps would take a clue from these folks, we could easily, without even breaking into a sweat, recapture the dialogue nationally on this issue.

Most Americans don't really want to be unfair, imo.

[ Parent ]
I think you're right about the minds of conservatives (such as they are!). (0.00 / 0)
I noticed long ago that conservatives base their world view on theories, and liberals/progressives base their world views on real.

It makes sense, then, that it's hard to shake a conservative loose from his beliefs.  Showing him (her) that reality doesn't reflect conservative assumptions has no effect because he/she decided long ago to dismiss reality in favor of theory.

A progressive observation that I like to espouse, but because it involves a tad of initial selflessness doesn't penetrate conservative brains, is that a community is truly no better off than the least well-off of its members.  Capitalistically, businesses need well-educated, mentally and physically healthy folks to work for them and to have the income (undrained by housing and health costs) to spend.  This is achieved by following and acting upon liberal and progressive ideas.

Alas, they can't follow it there.  Some kind of a fuse problem--zzzzzzzzzzzzzztt!  and they go back to their  preprogrammed theoretical babbling.

She didn't know it couldn't be done, so she went ahead and did it.

[ Parent ]
Not So (0.00 / 0)
Race is an absolutely central fact of this issue.  Simply can't get around it.

Anybody who is so deluded as to think that there are no "whites" in the South Bronx or Bedford/Stuyvesant knows no more about race than David Duke.

The problem is thinking that ethnicity and race are synonymous. They are not.

For sure there is a problem with language.  Unfortunately the most well meaning demonstrate it as fully as the most ignorant racist.

Despite the usual racial mindset, a good diary.

Best,  Terry  

[ Parent ]
Let Me See If I Can Finally Make A Point, Nightprowlkitty (0.00 / 0)
Jimmy Breslin told a story of the trial of Irish gunrunners on tiral.

The prosecutor fought for the inclusion of a blue-eyed, blonde woman on the jury.  He was most gratified when he succeeded.

The woman was married to a Black Panther.

The jury returned a unanimous verdict of not guilty though the defendants were clearly guilty and proven to be so.

The prosecutor saw only the color of the skin and obvious physical attributes of the prospective juror.  He saw nothing at all that mattered.

It cost him.

It costs us all.

Best,  Terry

[ Parent ]
Well ... (0.00 / 0)
... you can keep trying, but you don't convince me on this issue, terry.

I'm not talking about racism in the narrow sense of "I don't like brown people."

Nor do I deny there's also class issues here - if you have enough money you can transcend all the petty squabbles of we rabbly folks.

I'm speaking of institutionalized racism here, the default setting of the United States.  Do you deny this?  If so, I'd like to know your reasoning as to why.

Frankly, the best framing of this issue I've yet to see politically (and admittedly I have only read a fraction of a fraction of what's out there) is Duke1676's work, which doesn't bring any social issues at all into the mix overtly -- he just has a better default setting.

It's quite refreshing to read, and I suggest you take a look at some of his stuff before arguing with me -- because I'm not claiming expertise on the politics.  I'm interested in the social justice aspect.

You can bring every skill you have to this table, terry -- what you are saying and what I am saying need not be mutually exclusive.

[ Parent ]
Make up your mind (0.00 / 0)
I'm speaking of institutionalized racism here, the default setting of the United States.  Do you deny this?

Of course not.  I insist on it.  

The problem with racism is ignorance of what race is.

There is forensic software that can identify the racial admixture of perps and desiccated remains of victims.  It was instrumental in pinpointing the Baton Rouge serial killer, Derrick Todd Lee, by predicting his racial admixture.  The software is rarely used.  Better young women die than offend the racial sensitivities of the population.

One huge problem is that the cops don't know what the results mean.  They are as imbued with racial fallacies as yourself.  Identification of sub-Saharan African ancestry in the mix has the cops asking for DNA samples from African-Americans who look noting like that predicted by the software.  The owner has sought to alleviate the problem by printing out samples of pictures of people with a similar admixture to little effect.

Terrible hard to overcome racism.

Best,  Terry

[ Parent ]
Well ... (0.00 / 0)
... the fact is that violence against Latinos is on the rise.  That is no coincidence.

When you can show me methods that will puncture this kind of fear and ignorance that causes folks to treat others inhumanely, then I'll put a lot more credibility in your theories, Terry.

I'm happy to read anything that sheds light on racism and destroys ignorance (ultimately, it is ignorance and fear that is at the root of both racism and other acts of inhumanity that try to dehumanize the "other").

So keep talking with me - but as yet I have not been convinced that you have a better way when it comes to fighting both racism and the ignorance that causes it.

I also have made no claim that racism is the sole cause of what we are seeing now when it comes to the rhetoric on immigration.  So please keep that in mind as well when we engage on this subject.

[ Parent ]
Easy As Pie (4.00 / 1)
When you can show me methods that will puncture this kind of fear and ignorance that causes folks to treat others inhumanely, then I'll put a lot more credibility in your theories, Terry.

End the hate talk on all people based on prejudice.

It really is possible to picture paradise without everlasting hellfire.

Why do you hate us Saamis?  :-)

What's a Latino BTW?  Is it all right if I beat up a Brazilian?  (He would have to be awful weak these days?)

One of the most disgusting articles I ever read was a blind woman protesting violence against the handicapped as a drain on society.  A man in a wheelchair was pushed down a flight of stairs.  Another spastic man was placed in a garbage can by thugs on his daily struggle to walk home from work.  The author's own seeing eye dog was kicked viciously by a passerby at a bus stop.  The woman asked for help in identifying the culprit from maybe a half dozen or so others waiting for a bus.  None would help her though some admitted they knew the perp.

Can't we smile rather than baring our teeth?  Darwin thought it was the same.  It wasn't Darwin's finest moment.

Best,  Terry

[ Parent ]
LOL. (0.00 / 0)
Yes, easy as pie:

End the hate talk on all people based on prejudice

I am going at this goal from where I stand.  As you are from where you stand.

Trouble is, we need a whole lot more people to stand.

So keep them jokes coming, and I'll stay down in the trenches and brawl.

Takes all kinds, terryhallinan.

Each piece is the most important.

[ Parent ]
You're in good company, Terry, when you propose that all racism is (4.00 / 1)
equal.  But it's not.  Racism is a personal opinion, an individual's attitude, until it can hurt another person.

White people have power that means when they express their racism, someone else's self-worth, ability to get a good education and job, walk down the street without being targeted by law enforcement, make the same mistakes that white people do without draconian punishment, is denied.

African Americans can dislike and dis whites all they want, it doesn't keep whites from buying the homes they choose, getting the best mortgate rates, never ever having to spend a nanosecond wondering if all the work and achievement they've struggled for will mean nothing to someone with the power to deny them recognition because of their skin color.

This is what whites can and have done for centuries, and our private and government and social structure reflect our racism.  They are the structures of this country, of the people with the power to maintain them.  This is what's called institutional racism.  It's a fact of daily life for people who aren't white that they will have obstacles to overcome that whites never even know are there.

A white person who denies this and believes that skin color never entered into any success he or she had, is the person in the classic analogy:  He/She was born on third base, and thinks he hit a triple.

You're a good man.  I know you'll recognize this.


She didn't know it couldn't be done, so she went ahead and did it.

[ Parent ]
What's White People? (0.00 / 0)
White people have power

So if John Kerry's DNA had shown him to be a Middle Eastern terrorist like Ralph Nader instead of a white man, we wouldn't have had to worry about giving the Republicans a sacrificial lamb you think?  Or what do you think?

Describe "White people?"  Then we can understand what you are talking about.

The only ones I know who tried real hard were the apartheidists in South Africa.  Made an awful mess of things.

One of the most delightful accounts I read was of afrocentrists claiming Cleopatra had a dark skin as well as being African.  Cleopatra was described as being homely, dumpy, foul mouthed and bad smelling; a woman only an Italian could love.  Fine with me if afrocentrists want to claim Aristotle, Socrates, Jesus Christ and I don't know how many others as being one of their race.  Probably were even. Heck I will even throw in Cleopatra if they really want her but not Marc Antony who loved her so.

When OJ's cap with his hairs in it were found at the scene of his murders, the word went around that the negroid hairs could belong to any African-American.  

Trouble is OJ doesn't have negroid hair.  His hair has a rare bilateral symmetry that speaks to his mixed ancestry.

In your "white people," do you include OJ?

Hey, boadicaea, I know I am beating my head against a wall not so unlike Mike Gravel talking about the wasted lives in war to little effect.  It's my head.  The one that had me volunteer to go to Vietnam.  Little harm can come to such a head.  

Best,  Terry

[ Parent ]
White people are who everyone considers is a white people. You can tell, (4.00 / 1)
because they hang out with other people whom everyone considers is a white people.

We're not talking about science, here.  We're talking about racism.

She didn't know it couldn't be done, so she went ahead and did it.

[ Parent ]
So which are the white people? (4.00 / 2)
White people are who everyone considers is a white people. You can tell because they hang out with other people whom everyone considers is a white people.

- The skinheads that have their own church?

Or

The liberals they want to kill?

- The Jews?

OR

The Nazis?

- The white people who speak Spanish?

OR

The white people who don't speak Spanish?

Did you convict OJ of committing the tort of killing two people by sticking them with a knife because he is black, a Greek woman juror on the civil trial was asked.  "My skin is darker than his," responded the Greek woman.  Was she black and OJ white?  Reporters could not decide whether some 10% or so of the jury pool physically present before the trial  were black or white.  Could you?

If an African-American passes, is he then white or black?

Is a light-skinned, blue-eyed, blonde from the ancient Berber tribe in Africa white or black?

Some of us are never clear on who we are supposed to discriminate against.  

Should I vote against Obama because he is Irish or because he is black or because he is for the continued occupation of Iraq?

Life is so hard.

Best,  Terry

[ Parent ]
Once Again (0.00 / 0)
This is what whites can and have done for centuries, and our private and government and social structure reflect our racism.  They are the structures of this country, of the people with the power to maintain them.  This is what's called institutional racism.  It's a fact of daily life for people who aren't white that they will have obstacles to overcome that whites never even know are there.

A white person who denies this and believes that skin color never entered into any success he or she had, is the person in the classic analogy:  He/She was born on third base, and thinks he hit a triple.

You're a good man.  I know you'll recognize this.

Only the blindest fool would deny that classification by skin color, shape of the eyes and nose, accent, religion, language, ethnicity and other meaningless things have led to mistreatment of whole peoples.

Might be best to stop doing that.

In California the removal of quotas for entrance into universities had the effect of lifting a cap on Chinese applicants.  Was that bad you think? :-)  Bothered some mightily.

For sure we agree that denying people access to loans, neighborhoods, jobs, schooling or anything else based on their skin color is an evil.  But then that is my point.

Best,  Terry

[ Parent ]
No one group of people exerts power over another anywhere near (4.00 / 1)
the way that those of Northern European origin have exerted power over so many people of color. That's why those of Northern European origina have so much more work to do in this are.

That is MY point.

Racism without the power to inflict harm based on that racism is bad; racism that has made inflicting harm, based on that racism, part and parcel of the social structure is very, very evil.

Being a racist with no means to disadvantage the people one deems lesser, or terribly different, is a personal problem.

Institutionalized racism is a social problem in this country.



She didn't know it couldn't be done, so she went ahead and did it.

[ Parent ]
What power is that? (0.00 / 0)
No one group of people exerts power over another anywhere near the way that those of Northern European origin have exerted power over so many people of color.

What power have we Saamis exerted over anybody?  The UN has a report that we Saamis are undergoing genocide like all indigenous people, like the Ainu did in Korea and Japan, like the Kurds are undergoing in the Middle East?

Best,  Terry

[ Parent ]
Speaking of Saamis (0.00 / 0)
it took a bit of searching, but after I was introduced to Nils-Aslak Valkeapaa's poetry (or yoiks), I purchased a copy of "Trekways of the Wind." Truly wish his work was better known in the USA.

No ponies, but
"Please pass the lotus flower..."  
[ Parent ]
Thank You, KJ (4.00 / 2)
At my mother's funeral, I felt so very saddened I knew so little about her and her family.  It was no accident I knew so little.

Her mother died bearing my mother.  My mother was raised by an aunt, who apparently cared little for her.  I have an idea my grandfather never forgave my mother.  Whatever...

When my sister and I visited my aunt in Puget Sound, Aunt Vera told us our grandmother was no Laplander.  I had never heard mention of it.  Later when I met my uncle, he assured me grandmother was no Laplander.  I hadn't asked him either.  I never asked my mother.

It was many years later I saw a picture of my grandfather and grandmother.  There was not the slightest doubt she was one of those "primitives," a quite beautiful lady actually with pronounced Asian facial features.

A Peruvian friend knew all about Mark Twain.  He had read Huckleberry Finn in Spanish.  That had to be something like watching the Lone Ranger in French ("Hiyo, Silvaire. Parti.") Something gets lost in translation.  We saw that film in a Vietnamese theater where the Vietnamese surely would have dearly loved to parti us for laughing at a serious film and large expenditure for them.

My brother and I have planned for years to travel back in time to visit what we never knew and never will.

Good to know somebody cares about the Forgotten People of Europe.  What a people they must have been.

The Finns are hardy survivors as well and strangely alien too but they don't talk much either.  When they do, nobody knows what they are saying.

Best,  Terry

[ Parent ]
Met a painter (4.00 / 1)
on-line who was of Saami descent. She talked a lot about her heritage, some of the myths she grew up with, and of course, her beloved Nils-Aslak. Once she posted his poetry I knew I had to read more, and was astonished to discover his work was so difficult (and expensive) to get a hold of.

That Asian blood, I know, I have some as well. No one knows where it came from.  Families and their secrets!  

No ponies, but
"Please pass the lotus flower..."  

[ Parent ]
As I said, it's the appearance. That's the final coup de grace on nativist, racist, (4.00 / 1)
eugenics theories.  How can racial characteristics of personality, competence, etc. be assigned when there is no discernible divide between what has always been called "races?"  Your point is my point.  

Those who have a "white" appearance have co-opted power structures--business, government, etc.  It started a long time ago, and because people tend to hire and promote people who look like them it grew and became entrenched.  Those people started to have more money than others, more influence than others, more POWER than others.  And that power was used in the very traditional, very human ways it's always been used--to help others, others who look like them.  No DNA testing--just, who's in our family/who is a friend of our family/who is a friend of the friend of our family/etc.

Over the years we're talking about, this built and maintained a tremendous infrastructure.

Does that help?

In Norway, the Saami do have to deal with prejudice.  In this country, like the Irish, appearance has been all.

She didn't know it couldn't be done, so she went ahead and did it.

[ Parent ]
love it (4.00 / 2)
"A white person who denies this and believes that skin color never entered into any success he or she had, is the person in the classic analogy:  He/She was born on third base, and thinks he hit a triple."

Love it!!  As to whether or not White folk live in Bed/Stuy the answer is yes/no.  They are White looking but they have either chosen, or have been deemed, "colored."  American social mobility in action, you can choose to "lower" yourself, up is a different matter---that takes a lot of money or a deadly jump shot.

Also, Americans can be equal opportunity bigots--hence the disdain of "white trash" and its cousin, "trailer trash."   The ironic tragedy is that the trash is often prejudiced against "color," and often votes Republican and displays the flag of Dixie.  It's as if the "man" directs them to do his bidding.  Our armed forces display this very well--so much trash and color in the ranks--so few wearing brass.  Our schools also follow this pattern.

In sum, our caste system was written in the constitution, the darkies at the bottom rung, then the red and the brown, then the yellow, then those born on third base--taking a big lead--ignored by the pitcher.  In 200 years, all other things being equal, the Whites will understand today's Sunnis in Iraq.  A minority violently clinging to power.  

[ Parent ]
I have followed your voice over at DK on immigration (4.00 / 7)
because it is probably the one facet of life in America that bothers me most right now. Let me clarify that remark, I am most disturbed at the irrational, irresponsible, intolerant aspects of the vicious, xenophobic diatribe from the population, I am sad to say, not only this time     to be blamed solely on the Republicans, toward undocumented workers in the United States. It is an ignorant debate, based on nativist fear from the ones who came before, that others will take what they feel they are solely entitled to. Meaning life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I don't feel that is credo designed only for America.

However, it is late on a Friday and I have a life outside the blogs and shall return to hear what others feel in the morning.

However, please NPK keep up your passion for this key element in our decision making process for the kind of America we     want.

Well said ... (4.00 / 4)
... for someone on the run!  :)

I think that paragraph you wrote hit the nail on the head.

[ Parent ]
As important as the voices (4.00 / 3)
of people like Kyle, Nezua and Duke are on these issues, I think your voice is critical as well. The journey of someone who has gone from ignorance (and I use that word in its most basic meaning) to some level of understanding can be an important one to hear about for those still locked in ignorance.

I don't know if you've gotten to know "Manny" over at Latino Politico, but there is no more beautiful spirit than his on the whole blogosphere.  

Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. Mahatma Gandhi

You are absolutely correct ... (4.00 / 2)
... about the ignorance.  It is true.  At this point, I'm a trench warrior in the comments because I'm still learning.  I must say, tho, that you learn a great deal in the trenches as well!  Heh.

One thing I'll say for DKos.  There's a lot of noise there, but there are also some very intelligent people who are worth arguing with to clarify my own uncertainties on the facts and on the analysis.  And I have been greatly challenged on both.

[ Parent ]
If OTB reads this ... (4.00 / 1)
... could you put Manny's site on our blogroll?

I haven't read much of Manny, but enough to know he's a new voice as well.

Oh there's so many of them, I think.  I think many of us have been writing about them, I know you have in your essays, and not only bloggers, either.

[ Parent ]
thanks (4.00 / 3)
for a great diary, Nightprowlkitty.  Every day the voice of those opposed to nativists like Lou Dobbs and Tancredo is growing on the web and it makes me very happy.  There are human beings, most of which have families attached to them, that are affected by policies and politicians that could care less about nuance and circumstances.  With every new voice, we can finally provide some balance to the hate-mongers that dominate the media.  paz

Latino Político
[ Parent ]
I appreciate your ... (4.00 / 2)
... reading and commenting!

That voice of opposition is good to hear ... and I know it must grow even louder so that our damned politicians can get a clue.

I think most Americans are hungry for an alternative to all the lies and hatred of the Trancredos and Dobbses.

And I think they are ready to listen if only we, as buhdy would say, "Yell Louder!"

[ Parent ]
I have (4.00 / 2)
a bullhorn and comfortable marching shoes always lying in wait  :)

Latino Político
[ Parent ]
Got it! (4.00 / 1)
Hey NPK - in case you hadn't seen it, I was just coming  here to let you know the props you got at Citizen Orange today (top of the page) - along with a nice compliment about Docudharma.    Neato!

Every year is getting shorter, never seem to find the time. Plans that either come to naught or half a page of scribbled lines.  ~ Pink Floyd
[ Parent ]
Thanks for the tip! (4.00 / 1)
I had already checked out Citizen Orange and saw the kudos -- glad to see our site mentioned!

Thanks for adding to the blogroll -- you are da bestest!

[ Parent ]
(blushing) (4.00 / 2)
[ Parent ]
Well, its your own fault (4.00 / 2)
You're not supposed to show up here when I'm talking about you behind your back. LOL

But really, sooo great to see you here!!!

Almost everything you do will seem insignificant, but it is important that you do it. Mahatma Gandhi

[ Parent ]
Illegal is not a noun graphic (4.00 / 5)

I've copied it into my photobucket so that if people wish, they can use on the Big Orange.

http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p278/BruceMcF/politics/illegalkid.jpg

Support Lesbian creative works, 100% Yuri from ALC Press

Thank you! (4.00 / 3)

[ Parent ]
You probably know I got a strong bent for tearing into folks that dis (4.00 / 1)
migrants.  Did you know I can rant for days on word choice and communication?  My very first dkos diary, and the next one, were on this very subject.

Here goes the very, very, very distilled version of my rant on word choice:  

"All we got between us is language.  You don't care how you use it, you don't care about anything.  You say well, THAT'S what I think that word means, and nobody knows what you're talking about when you use it, you're kinda mentally masturbating."

Well, when you distill you have to get something across with just a couple of words so they have to be very strong and to the point, and easy to visualize . . . never mind.

I am going to those sites.  I grew up on the border (New Mexico/Texas/Mexico) and so many of my friends in California are migrants from, well, everywhere.  I'll do your subject proud.  Thanks, nightprowlkitty.

She didn't know it couldn't be done, so she went ahead and did it.

one of the things about abusing a class of people... (4.00 / 1)
...is the tendency to evoke genuine and universal voices in the survivors :}  I've really enjoyed kyle's diaries though I am only reading an essay or three a day right now, so much is missed.    

Ome essay I'd love to read...how migration can be expected to evolve as the next 3 billion pile on and more ecosystems and human economies collapse.  

I think this: (4.00 / 1)
One essay I'd love to read...how migration can be expected to evolve as the next 3 billion pile on and more ecosystems and human economies collapse.  

... is a very important point.

It ties in with my learning about what happened in New Orleans.  What happened there is a forerunner to what is going to happen to all of our coastal cities.  It would do us all good to understand that, to realize this is a problem that affects us all, not just those who live on the Gulf Coast.

We've been reading essays here about upcoming shortages of water (and existing shortages as well).  Humanity has always been a migrating species.  People will indeed be on the move in the coming decades.  We ought to understand that better.

[ Parent ]
Jumping in... (0.00 / 0)
Whether "US centric" or not, immigrant is the word used to describe my ancestors who came to America. (Yes, they stayed here.)

And if the use of "migrant" is to be preferred, because of the claim that 65% of migrants return to their home country, I can see why use of the dictionary correct term is highlighted.

What I can't see is why calling a person an "undocumented worker" is like hitting an automatic "racist!" "hatemonger!" button.

That is the reason I stay out of these discussions. I'm not afraid of getting my feelings or ego hurt, I just don't see why wanting people to go through the process of legalization before reaping the benefits of US citizenship is wrong.

Companies that hire undocumented workers in this country can outbid companies who don't, because they don't have to pay taxes, etc. Who benefits? Who gets hurt? Why is it racist to want the documented workers to get the jobs instead of the undocumented workers? And I'm not talking about picking lettuce.

I see this issue as less about race and more about Capitalism Run Amok.  

No ponies, but
"Please pass the lotus flower..."  

School ya? (4.00 / 1)
Ah, there are a lot of questions in your comment, and I am educating myself as I go along.

I have no problem with the phrase "undocumented workers."  It is the use of the word "illegal" that is dehumanizing to folks.  Illegal is not a noun, and too many people are using it in that way - "oh, those illegals are taking jobs away from real Americans!" etc.

So I'm not quite sure I understand your contention that using the words "undocumented workers" is like "hitting an automatic 'racist,' 'hatemonger' button."

You say you don't understand why it's "wrong" to want people to go through the process of legalization before reaping the benefits of citizenship.

First, most undocumented migrants do NOT reap the benefits of citizenship.  They pay both income taxes and social security into the system and do not gain anything from this -- although the rest of us do!  They aren't allowed to use Medicaid (although their children are covered in certain cases).

But the most important part of this discussion is the entire notion of "standing in line" like the rest of those wanting to work and live in the US.

I'd like to point you to Duke1676's diary, "147."  It's not an easy read, but it explains very well why so many migrants from Mexico, and so many unskilled workers that are needed here, are unable to become "legal."  I think too many folks envision an actual "line" that immigrants stand in and don't understand how dysfunctional our process really is.

As far as the companies who exploit migrant labor, I'll again point to another outstanding diary by Duke that spells out exactly how this should be done.

The problem we have with labor now is not undocumented workers -- it is our own weakened labor laws that are hurting ALL American workers.

Duke says:

In order to raise the standards for all workers, both US-born and immigrant, the labor and employment laws of this country need to be more strictly enforced.

Currently "workplace enforcement" revolves around the government rooting out unauthorized workers and deporting them. The businesses rarely receive any punishments and when they do they quickly pass those costs on to consumers through higher prices as part of the cost of doing business. But the terrible working conditions that have relegated those jobs to ones that only undocumented immigrants will accept remain the same.

This paradigm needs to shift. The government needs to shift its focus from attacking the symptom of unfair labor practices, to attacking those practices themselves.

Instead of swat teams of ICE agents storming factories and meatpacking plants looking for undocumented immigrants, we need armies of inspectors from the Department of Labor, OSHA, and other agencies, looking for labor violations and evidence unfair labor practices. This is how you raise the standards for all US workers.

We have all been hoodwinked by the Republican spin on this to think that if only there were no undocumented workers all our wages would go up and everything would be just great for the American worker.

But the weakening of our labor laws (including those states with "right to work" laws that have killed the unions) will hurt workers whether there are undocumented migrants here or not.  It's very convenient to those corrupt corporations and our corrupt Repubs for us to think it's someone else's fault.

This is a long comment in response to you, kj, and I don't know if it's helpful or just makes things seem even more confusing.

And sure, it's about Capitalism Run Amok, but it also is very much about race, and the rhetoric from astroturf groups as well as the Repubs feeds into that racism and xenophobia.

[ Parent ]
Very much appreciate (4.00 / 1)
the time and energy you put into your response, kitty. I read some of the "147" diary, and to be honest, it put me off. Maybe he was just frustrated at trying to explain something that seemed simple to him.

But this:

This paradigm needs to shift. The government needs to shift its focus from attacking the symptom of unfair labor practices, to attacking those practices themselves.

I get, and it is from this point of view that I'll read his (and any others you write or point out) from now on.  I really didn't get the frustration around this issue, the "illegal immigrant" term, and as someone who is way too literal with words, it bothered me that I couldn't see what the arguments were about.

Your reply schooled me. :-)  And you didn't even have to hit me over the head with a frying pan!

Side note, a woman I knew sort of briefly and in passing, once complained about her husband's small construction company losing a brick work bid to a company that employed undocumented migrants or immigrants. She said that was because the other company could underbid her husband because they didn't have to pay into the payroll tax stuff. I believed her. I didn't dig any further to find out that workers have to pay taxes whether or not they're here in the US legally, or not.  Wow.  Big, big difference in perception, there.  And I bought it!

Thanks, KidKitty!

No ponies, but
"Please pass the lotus flower..."  

[ Parent ]
Thanks, kj. (4.00 / 1)
It is true that there are times undocumented migrants work "under the table" and do not pay any taxes -- but that is also true of American citizens who do the same.  So it's possible your friend is right in this particular instance -- but that employer could get in a hell of a lot of trouble if the IRS comes around.

But study after study shows that undocumented migrants pay far more into our economic system than they take out -- and in Arizona in particular (which has a really terrible anti-migrant policy), the loss of these folks has been shown to caused a loss in the economy of that state.

I appreciate your willingness to learn on this -- so many people just drink the kool-aid and get angry if they are called on it.  It's not that terribly complicated, but it does require some real thought - like you, it only took a couple of lines by knowledgeable folks to break through my own ignorance and want to learn more.

[ Parent ]
NPK, it was your reponses (4.00 / 1)
in the previous discussions on race that let me know you were open to teaching the best way you knew how as well as open to learning yourself, which, btw, are a couple of wonderful attributes to have in the fast-paced, quick-on-the-draw intertubes. :-)  Thanks again.

No ponies, but
"Please pass the lotus flower..."  
[ Parent ]
"School Me!" (4.00 / 1)
SuperKitty of Justice!!!  @;-)

Feel free, I have a hard head. Sometimes it "takes a frying pan."  

No ponies, but
"Please pass the lotus flower..."  

Friday Night at 8: There's A New Voice to be Heard | 50 comments
 

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