(This essay asks some good questions, and not just about the I/P issue. Promoted at 11:47 EST by Nightprowlkitty. srkp’s just bumbling around! – promoted by srkp23)
Ban me after this if you feel the need, but in truth, this really isn’t about this site. It is, in the end, about my support of the Democratic party.
I/P is banned. Why? Because the subject offends sensitivities. It is the suppression of a legitimate concern, a humanitarian issue. Why? Because some do not wish for the nation causing the suffering to receive the blame it deserves. Because some find the ‘toxicity’ more offensive than human suffering. Though Dkos did not ban I/P, Dkos banned many Palestinian advocates though they had done no wrong. Same difference.
Now, I don’t know for sure the demographics of this site, but it’s a safe bet that the demographics are majority White. Same as Dkos.
I’m not White. So, perhaps it is my race that effects my position. Or maybe it was the Democrats’ response to New Orleans that crystallized it for me. Or it could have been the Democrats’ silence on Jena 6. Then again, it could be the Democrats’ platform that brought me to this question. Why should a Black woman support the Democratic party?
I came to this site not only because of mattes, but because I believed the Zen had a vision. (“Dictator” I can not do.) I was impressed by the Zen during the impeachment wars on Dkos. The abuse, the lies, the smears he endured all because he supported another’s call to do the right thing. Justice. Freedom of expression. This impressed me.
I didn’t post much about my thoughts on impeachment. In my opinion, it’s not going to happen. Not just because of the votes, but there is a lack of will in our representatives. But I’ll be damn if I stand by and watch a man get flayed for having the nerve to demand impeachment, to demand justice. Who dares to have objections? Who dares to demand that one shouldn’t freely express himself? Why would I ever want such people on my side, watching my back, standing next to me in ANY fight? If one’s values can be flipped so easily to suit an end, then that person becomes a liability to any Just Cause. This is where I’m coming from…
Two uncles lost everything in New Orleans, stranded on the roof of their homes. One has given up returning. The other can think of nothing else. And I read of Jefferson(D)who used the National Guard to pick up his shit while women were raped in hell-holes made into a spectacle by the media. How many children were snatched by predators during this time? I read a story of a little girl who grabbed the hand of a stranger. She’d gotten seperated from her family. This girl lucked up. I watched a Democrat governor who prefered to kiss Bush’s ass than help her own people. I swallowed bitterness on realizing that Democrats would allow Joe Lieberman to sweep away investigations into this tragedy with barely a protest. HRC graces Black churches and the NAACP and yet uses none of her power to bear pressure for justice for of the young men of Jena. Only after threat of votes did she utter words.
I know the worth of Palestinians to the Democratic party. I read what Democrats think:
The Middle East. The Democratic Party is fundamentally committed to the security of our ally Israel
and the creation of a comprehensive, just and lasting peace between Israel and her neighbors. Our
special relationship with Israel is based on the unshakable foundation of shared values and a mutual
commitment to democracy, and we will ensure that under all circumstances, Israel retains the qualitative
edge for its national security and its right to self-defense. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and should
remain an undivided city accessible to people of all faiths.Under a Democratic Administration, the United States will demonstrate the kind of resolve to end
the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that President Clinton showed. We will work to transform the Palestinian
Authority by promoting new and responsible leadership, committed to fighting terror and promoting
democracy. We support the creation of a democratic Palestinian state dedicated to living in peace and
security side by side with the Jewish State of Israel. The creation of a Palestinian state should resolve
the issue of Palestinian refugees by allowing them to settle there, rather than in Israel. Furthermore, all
understand that it is unrealistic to expect that the outcome of final status negotiations will be a full and
complete return to the armistice lines of 1949. And we understand that all final status negotiations must
be mutually agreed.
This platform decides for Palestinians what is Just. This platform never acknowledges what Palestinians have had stolen. This platform gives away lands belonging to Palestinians without Palestinians’ consent. Democrats ignore the abuses, the crimes, the humanitarian crisis. Democrats say nothing about Israel’s threats to cut off electricity to all of Gaza. People hear ‘cut the electricity’ and think it’s similar to a power outage where the only harm is no TV and no computer to blog. They don’t think about the hospitals. They don’t think about the water.
So, I ask myself, “If Democrats are willing to sell out their values – compassion, acknowledgement and justice – when the matter involves Palestinians, what would they do to me, to Blacks (or any minority) if it became politically expedient to do so? Then again, I may already have the answer to that.
The denial of Palestinians’ humanity is within the Democratic party. The denial results in with the banning of I/P diaries. The denial results is the suppression of Palestinian advocates.
I’m told the reason for this suppression of expression, the suppression of humanitarian issues, is due to “toxicity” arising from I/P diaries. At what point did liberals back away from justice and compassion because of ‘toxicity’ and sensitivities. Is there anyone here who remembers how Blacks were “advised” to speak softly else they may offend? It’s the same g-damn shit. Offend who? And who the f’ck cares?? What the hell is the worth of ‘toxicity’ or ‘offense’ next to justice and compassion?
And this is the party on which I’m suppose to depend? Are you actually trying to convince a Black woman that suppression of expression is the right thing to do, the best thing to do? That ignoring crimes and abuses is the best thing? All because somebody gets their feelings hurt? It’s funny. 9/11 conspiracies are allowed but not actual events, humanitarian cries (not a typo).
No other people today, nowhere, are treated as Palestinians are by my own party.
But you want some suggestions on how to conduct I/P? How ’bout these for a start:
1. If I call someone a Zionist troll or an AIPAC tool, then ban my Black ass. No appeals. I can bitch about it at PFF. No loss to you. BUT, the same punishment must be enforced against those who charge me as an apologist for terrorism, a basher of Jews. No appeals.
2. Select people to debate this issue. Not admins. Members of this community and dkos’. I’ve got a few names: Heathlander, Christopher Day, MickT for Palestinian advocates. For Israeli advocates: blueness, anotherAmerican, NPK (If I understand correctly, she isn’t an admin). And let THEM set the tone and the topics. No interference on the selection of topics from admins. This list is a starter which can be increased over time – on both sides.
3. Make it a rule to back up assertions when asked.
4. Agree on acceptable sources. Start small, work your way to increasing the list.
5. Respond to what you actually see, not what you think you see.
6. Recognize that legitimate arguments are legitimate arguments.
Just a start…
Freedom of expression is important to Black woman. Justice is important to a Black woman. Acknowledgment of a wrong is important to Black woman. These inconsistencies are troubling. And it is disturbing to see them repeated here and other Left blogs. Where does a liberal fit into a party that denies the humanity of a people? That can not bear to even discuss it?
It is forbidden to speak of one people – Palestinians. For a Black woman, it is enough. That is one people too many…
I believe I found the appropriate word I was looking for: Cynicism.
Update: Well Hell. Thanks!!
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it’s the people who obsess over it, and the tone they take. they’ve chased people out of i/p diaries throughout the blogosphere. plenty of people want to discuss the issue, and i can’t tell you how many comments i’ve seen expressing a desire to do so, but with the conclusion that they never go into i/p, because of the vitriol.
i asked mattes to take a balanced approach. i told her we would like a different tone- to stop the shitflinging and the blame-games, and to establish a dialogue to discuss peace. but some people aren’t interested in peace. she posted on another site that she was working one up- clearly knowing it would not be well-received. then, she posted one, here, that started right off blaming everything on israel. that’s not the way to start a dialogue, and it’s exactly the opposite of what i requested: everything’s israel’s fault, even palestinian violence is really israel’s fault. her next diary was, essentially: breaking!!! not all jews think alike!!! it used the exact same article, the exact same claim to reprint its entirety, and the exact same inflammatory word in the title that was used by a certain someone on another site. she wasn’t interested in dialogue. she was interested in pushing buttons and playing the martyr.
it’s interesting how all those who have been banned blame it on the politics, or the site administrators, rather than their own behavior. you haven’t been banned. nor have heathlander, or jon, or litho, or many others.
it’s not the issue, it’s the people who refuse to discuss it rationally. it’s the people who refuse to help foster an atmosphere of peace.
but i think it has to do with I/P being seen as a baiting topic used by the right to try and divide liberals yet again.
I too feel for the Palestinians in this crisis but they are not without blame and since the rule does not preclude you from sharing important stories or issues involving the Palestinians I say go for it and help us to understand their side of the story better.
… different issues here. First, I think the question of your title is a good one. And I think that it’s more than just black women now who are questioning why we should support the party (though not necessarily because of the I/P issue).
And FYI, I now refer to impeachment in a different way — I call for the removal from office of George W. Bush and Richard Cheney. Removal from office. I’d like to say that a million times. I no longer care how they do it.
As far as the I/P issue — oh that is a tough one. I hope we can resolve this. I think that too many I/P essays never get to the point of discussion at all — the initial assumptions in the essays are so bitterly disputed that the facts never end up being agreed upon.
I don’t have an answer for you. But I think this essay absolutely qualifies as acceptable, because it is discussing how we should discuss this (yeah, I know, that sounds crazy, but that’s where we are).
Although this is primarily a diary about management’s decision here to ban I/P, I would like to chat about a couple of your other points.
You said:
I would say yes, I’m sure you are correct. I completely agree with NPK here who says we need to expand beyond this demographic and ensure this community provides a message and a purpose that is welcoming to all people who value progressive ideas. In this spirit, I would like to say Welcome and Please Stick Around!
Then you say:
On this point I would say that this site is not about supporting the Deomocratic Party. It is about supporting ‘progressive’ ideals. I found this paragraph powerful, and really deserves a good response.
Since I’m not part of admin, I’ll just join you in saying I would like to see this question answered here.
How do we get past all the personal shit that has plagued the I/P debates in the past and get to the point where discussion of this vital point is allowed.
Reading the official party platform callmecassandra posts above, it is troubling to me to see the Democratic position starts off with an appearance of choosing sides on this issue, and then procedes with some borderline arrogant assumptions of what to do next.
Well, let’s see what happens next. It’s an interesting challenge for our little community, and an enormous life-and-death struggle in the real world.
and have missed a lot, so I’m not certain what suggestions people have come up with on how to talk about I/P, other than in this diary.
In truth, the notion that speech needs to be regulated does not appeal to me. The occasional banning of assholes does not bother me in the least (I know. I know. That’s an inconsistent position.) but telling people that they can’t use certain words or compelling people to discuss I/P in any particular way will simply not work.
People are going to discuss I/P any way they damn well please and so we have only two options: allow I/P debate or don’t allow it.
For myself, I would very much prefer it if we allowed it… despite the potential for significant grief.
At the very least, we should vote on whether or not to allow I/P. The issue is just too big to ignore.
While I would hate to see this place become home to kind of relentless acrimony that we see elsewhere… DD is not a tea party, either.
People will find this inadequate, but I have enough faith in buhdy’s judgment that if he bans someone for behaving like an asshole than that person probably was behaving like an asshole.
So, we simply apply the same standards to I/P diaries and comments that we apply to any diaries and comments.
If someone insists on harassing another user and consistently flings vile or abusive accusations at another user, then buhdy can ban his or her ass.
Also, this idea of I/P hall monitors is one that I initially supported, but have decided against. It won’t work. You know what will happen. Disputes will arise, sides will get drawn up, and then people will start whining and complaining and bitching in a shrill and public way to the hall monitors, causing even more disruption.
Bad idea.
So, yeah, the I/P pony is an unruly pony.
Nonetheless, I say let him out of the stable.
All ponies should roam free… assholes can take a hike.
this is about all of us… and when we fracture the issues, then we end up thinking we are on different sides
i’ve got to go now, but i hope you will keep posting because maybe we can break through the crap and get to each other
get to the human being…
…since I see that sofia has joined here, I’d nominate her in a second to be a moderator of I/P, if we’re going to have one or more of those.
Beyond that, I wasn’t involved in the decision to disallow I/P diaries, and I can’t say that I feel that if my advice wasn’t sought out then, there isn’t much reason to give it now. But I don’t see that it makes much difference one way or the other whether we allow it or not, or that it makes much difference whether we moderate it or not. If we allow it without moderation, no one from either side will be particularly happy with us. If we allow it but moderate it, no one from either side will be happy with how we moderate it. If we don’t allow it at all, no one who wants to post about it will be happy with us.
There is no way to win this call, IMHO. Only a choice about how we will make some people unhappy.
four uses of the right wing slur, “Democrat Party” by the diarist in the essay text, and another in the comments.
You start upon that foundation in your discussion. As a pacifist, I cannot. Peace is never won by assigning blame. Ever.
If you want peace, we can discuss. If you want to assign blame, I am not going to listen…to either side. You are not ready. I will not be harrangued by people who want to spread more war.
diaries like the plague at dkos. I believe that it is not an isolated issue but one that impacts every aspect of our culture and politics, especially foreign policy. It’s a taboo that has old historical roots, and is shamefully used to promote agendas and stifle understanding. It is not confined to the net as in my real community it splinters other wise rational conversations. I would like to read about the issues without all the baggage and venom. I agree with the diarist’s belief that we should be able to discuss this or any other issue which as humans we need to face. If were looking to the future we cannot bury injustice because if not looked at will continue to fester and color the future.
Israel should have been forged out of Germany–Jews spoke the language (yiddush is a German dielect) and that was their homeland for the last couple of hundred years. This was not considered because Europeans still wanted a final solution–getting the Jews out of Europe. Remember, none of the allies, including America, bombed the rail lines to the concentration camps–they didn’t deem them a suitable target.
As you obviously know, racism leads to some strange outcomes. The White Europeans considered the Arabs less White, and thus stole their land and gave this to the remaining Jews. The UN was complicit, of course. The Arabs got the shaft because they were powerless–oil didn’t rule yet.
That was then, now we must help the ME residents live with the facts as they exist. One solution, an Arab Hitler is not acceptable. Neither is a Jewish Hitler. So coexistence is the only alternative. I believe Arafat wanted to sign the peace accord in 2000 but knew he would be assasinated if he did. As it is, he died under suspicious circumstances.
By destroying Iraq, America has no say in a peace accord, Bush inflames. Hopefully, a younger generation of Palestinian and Israeli can come to grips with sanity–because their elders are batshit crazy–all of them, both sides. I’m not optimistic because the political conflict has morphed into religious hatred–and that shit is the craziest variety.
I get it entirely.
If they draw a line in the sand on this issue, you can rest assured that I (white/male) will stake my flag on your side of that line.
I don’t need the label of any political party to tell me that I am FOR justice, I am FOR Equality, I sure as hell am FOR freedom of expression, and I am FOR spreading peace & love among my human family. I am also very much FOR offending a few folks with fragile sensibilities along the way, if it means a meaningful furtherance of the discussion.
That being said, I don’t believe it was the TOPIC that was banned per se, but rather the utter lack of respect and civility evident in the postings of those who just lose their mind over this very divisive issue. YOUR essay is the sort we need more of – reasoned and reasonable. Thanks.