Fucking Meta

( – promoted by buhdydharma )

This is a very long somewhat meta essay and I am not happy to post it.  I have become less and less interested in what does not work.  But I invested a lot of years at Daily Kos and at blogs, and I can’t simply walk away and turn to embrace something better without getting these feelings out of me.

I have been reading and thinking about the many comments and essays on the Obamabot controversy and the ideas on how to deal with it.

Meteor Blades has given the green light to hide rate anyone who uses the word “Obamabot” or “Obama hater.”

I think this is a big mistake.

I also think Turkana is mistaken when he makes equivalencies between the two groups by saying there’s many diaries on the rec list which are critical of Obama, so in effect no one is being censored, etc., etc., etc.

This is not about STFU or literal censorship.  This is also not about who is driven off the site or burned out by the dynamic going on at the site.

This isn’t even about Daily Kos, imo.  I don’t for one minute believe Docudharma or any other website is somehow superior or that we are smarter or more honest, prettier, have better taste, or all of the other ego hedges we build to avoid our interdependence, our knowledge that no one is superior or inferior to anyone else, that we are all important, necessary and equal in our existence.

The dynamic we are all grappling with did not begin with the election of Barack Obama.

One of the aspects of this dynamic is the notion that if we don’t get with the Democratic Party program we are “taking our ball and going home.”

The other is the notion that there’s an equivalence in the excesses of the Obamabots and Obama-haters so the two cancel each other out.

I would like to deal with both of these notions, while saying they are not the whole picture, but just two pieces in a very puzzling puzzle.

Taking Our Ball and Going Home

taking ball going home

The first notion, which implies a need for both unity and the ability to sacrifice what we need in order to serve a greater need, is so tricky that I am daunted by even dealing with it.

How can I disagree that coalitions and unity are necessary?

The I-Ching has something to say about this, in the hexagram of “Inner Truth”:

inner truth

… it is important to understand upon what the force of inner truth depends.  This force is not identical with simple intimacy or a secret bond.  Close ties may exist also among thieves; it is true that such a bond acts as a force but since it is not invincible, it does not bring good fortune.  All association on the basis of common interests holds only up to a certain point.  Where the community of interest ceases, the holding together ceases also, and the closest friendship often changes into hate.  Only when the bond is based on what is right, on steadfastness, will it remain so firm that it triumphs over everything.

Does anyone think we here at Docudharma are immune from these pitfalls?  That only Obamabots and neocons, etc., are in “associations” that are based upon the passions of the moment and not “what is right”?  And how do we even know “what is right”?

If we are to join in coalition with the Democratic Party (or anyone else), it has to be based on something real and something right, to the best of our understanding of what is right.

Being told that we must sacrifice our own advocacies in the hopes of getting a crumb here and there is not a bond that is based upon something right and it will not hold up under any real pressure.

So to be told we are “taking our ball and going home” is problematic, no?  For in this instance, we have no ball, we never would and never could.  If the problem is inherent in the circumstance we are dealing with, joining in coalition is just a sham and will be revealed as such when push comes to shove.

Everyone on all sides of the issues of the day likes to quote Martin Luther King or Ghandi.  Fact is, both of them saw inherent problems in the system and knew they could not work within the system when it came to their “line in the sand,” the human dignity of their brothers and sisters.  That could not be put on the back burner.

But you know something?  Martin Luther King is dead.  So is Ghandi.  So is Malcolm X.  They’re dead.

We’re alive.  It’s up to us now.  We can gain much wisdom from the past, but it’s our turn to add to that wisdom and move the human story towards compassion, towards justice, towards equality.  We may be a sorry bunch, but we’re all there is.

So when folks say we are taking our ball and going home, I have to respond that they are the ones with the ball, they have already taken it and gone home, and I won’t pretend that I am in the game when I am not.  Call me whatever name you like, it won’t change that reality.

My challenge is to find that commonality that truly will hold up to any pressure and prevail, be steadfast.  I think there are folks right this very minute, globally, who have found that commonality and hopefully I will gain the humility to look beyond my own immediate situation and join with them.

* * * * * * * * *

The Notion of Equivalency

apples and oranges

Now to the second dynamic, the “equivalency” argument.  We know Obama uses this a lot when he criticizes the “far” left and the far right.  We know that there is little “far left” in the USA these days and we also know that the damage done by the far right is simply not equivalent to any historical damage in the USA done by the far left.

Yet that is what is being put forth as the moderation philosophy at Daily Kos and that is not the only place I see this equivalency used.

Part of this is, I think, our natural desire not to fight each other, especially not to fight those we perceive could be our allies.  It’s a personal thing, it’s the child tortured by anxiety when she sees her parents fighting, it’s the child in us desiring union and fearing separation, it’s the primal human instinct fearing separation from the herd.  Or it’s just that we’re scared to fight because we’re not very good at it.

But there is no equivalence.  Sure Obamabot and Obama-hater are both name-calling devices, but the effect of one is far different than the other.

The effect of Obamabot thinking is to halt activism and fight to retain the status quo.

I saw that during the time we tried to make torture accountability an issue at Daily Kos.  Folks were signing the petition and becoming more aware of the courage needed for us to face what we have done as a country to other human beings.

That effort, and any other effort to change inherent problems, from impeachment to war, was halted by the inertia and power of the status quo, of those who have hegemony now and will not give it up without a fight.  In other words, the Democratic Party and their hard-line supporters.  They exploited the natural love for a human being of the Obamabots to form a very scary coalition – one which, I believe, will not last, but which has the effect of stopping any real unity when it comes to human rights action and truly exercising our citizenship.  For if we only support Party and President, who is left to pursue the duties of the citizen, the duty and right to petition our government with our grievances?

What is the harm of the so-called “haters”?  What has been halted by those who push for the issues I’ve outlined above?  And what have the hard-line Dems on the blogs put forth when it comes to action other than “support the President” and “elect Democrats?”

Right now, the hard-liners are VERY threatened by the notion that some of us no longer wish to “elect Democrats” without real reform in that process and real consequences for those Dems who do not exhibit the kind of Democratic values that made us join the party in the first place.

But as much as we’d like that power, we don’t yet have it.  Even the threat, though, of “taking our ball and going home” causes apoplexy among the hardliners.

There can be no change in the Democratic Party if we don’t have a seat at the table.  We cannot form coalitions without a seat at the table.  We cannot support the President when his actions go against our Democratic values.  There can be no real dialogue unless we are dealt with as equals.

So to make the equivalence that Obamabots and Obama-haters are equally damaging is not only absurd to me, but obscene.  It is not true.  It is false.  It is demonstrably false.  I have not seen one loyalist show how we are harming anything, anyone, and I have not seen one loyalist pushing for anything other than either supporting Obama’s policies (OFA-style – calling in and saying to our reps “I demand you support the President’s plan”) and raising money to elect democrats.

The actual issues themselves, the policies, the values – please someone, show me where any loyalist to either the Party or the President has put forth action that we as citizens could get behind.

We have not stopped the loyalists from their goals.  They have stopped us completely and it takes very few of them to do so.

There is no equivalency.

Some folks here have spoken of those who are still “fighting the good fight.”  To me, that is entirely irrelevant, because as long as the party loyalists can, with a very small number of people, keep real action based on Democratic values from taking place, it doesn’t matter how we “beat them” in argument, get on the rec list, hold our own.  It’s an uneven fight and the problem is systemic and inherent.  Any false solution obtained out of exhaustion and the real desire to not fight those who are in so many ways our allies will be shown to break apart at the important moment.  It will not work.

Do I have a solution?

Hell no!

Ha ha ha.

For me, speaking only for myself, I am trying to widen my view.  I will join in coalition with those who share my values and will fight to embody those values.  Mostly, I will learn and work to change myself, my view, my own prejudices and hatreds and passions.

What I will not do is fake a compromise or fake an alliance or play word games, win one day and lose the next.

Right now I’m looking for something to fight for, not against.

I respect and honor everyone else’s individual decisions on this – but I warn you, I am not to be taken for granted, that I will join in any effort someone here comes up with because it’s Docudharma and I love this site.

I warn you that I will be angry if I have to hurt someone here by not joining in with them and I’ll take it out on you because I am immature and egotistical and thin skinned.

Just because I am against the values of the Obamabots does not mean I am for anything and everything that opposes them.

There is no equivalency between Obamabots and Obama-haters except the words themselves are both taken as falsity and insult by their intended targets.

And there is no ball to take home.

The answer is out there, the right action is being taken even if it isn’t being loudly broadcast on the blogs.  It is a search I intend to embark upon.

267 comments

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  1. … I agree with Meteor Blades that we need to learn how to criticize those who are on “our side.”

    But in order to do that we have to be at a place of some safety, and Daily Kos is not that place.

    Even here at Docudharma, there have been many times I’ve kept myself from stating my disagreement because I am exhausted at being misunderstood, because I am arrogant and want complete agreement or nothing, because I am ascairt of being yelled at, lol.

    So although that is a noble aim, there are structural reasons why the “criticism of our own” is impossible at the Orange and not easy anywhere, even here.

  2. The Horde is definitely the dominate guild/clan at the Naranjastan server, so make sure to power up your mojo before engaging a level boss.  

  3. Word. 🙂

    • Xanthe on December 10, 2009 at 18:10

     

  4. and you sure nailed ME! lol

    Part of this is, I think, our natural desire not to fight each other, especially not to fight those we perceive could be our allies.  It’s a personal thing, it’s the child tortured by anxiety when she sees her parents fighting, it’s the child in us desiring union and fearing separation, it’s the primal human instinct fearing separation from the herd.  Or it’s just that we’re scared to fight because we’re not very good at it.

    You make several excellent points, here, Im glad you posted this. Ill be thinking on this a good bit more.

    In addition to this, I am also thinking about a few other remarks here and there. One I seem to keep forgetting was when buhdy posted his essay the other day, with that… Ill have to go find it to quote.

    And if anyone accuses you of being   (4.00 / 49)

    part of an organized effort to revive Internet activism….stand your ground, look them in the eye and Yell it Loud…

    You are DAMN RIGHT I am.

    and the UNITE RESIST pic.

    Well. okay. Im still in my SUBVERT and GO STEALTH mode but we’ll see.

    I have numerous reasons why I refrain from “fighting”, and most of them are quite valid. We each have our gifts.

    • k9disc on December 10, 2009 at 18:37

    “I am a Socialist.

    I am not a Democrat, as the party faithful on dKos and in the mainstream corporate world have clearly stated.

    If the Democrats want my vote they can earn it by offering up some progressive legislation.

    They want us to STFU and leave if we can’t get behind a milquetoast Corporate Agenda, fine. They can have it. Good luck winning in ’10 and ’12 without my vote.”

    I think that is the answer.

    If all of the disenfranchised left step out of the game then they will have nothing to fight but the Republicans.

    With no one to fight but the Republicans they can do their job.

    We can do our job by shifting the Overton Window and giving the Left of Center Dems breathing room – “I’m not a socialist! These guys <<< are Socialists!”

    We then build our own thing and throw our weight into the fray if they’ve earned it or if we can stomach the move.

    That’s my path from now on and I think it’s a viable one to getting some of our agenda passed.

    I’m not the Left, the Hard Left, nope. I’m a Socialist.

    Thoughts?

    • Alma on December 10, 2009 at 18:38

    overthink this for awhile.

    I’ll be back.

  5. i thought this was going to be about doing the horizontal mambo with someone named “meta.”  And i’d heard she’s a hottie.  damn.  

    Okay, now that i’ve gotten that sophomoric, pathetic excuse for a joke out of my system, i must say “hear hear.”

    Were I a more capable writer, I would make arguments such as yours in comments wherever I could.  One thing that we must keep in mind is that there’s a lotsa folks reading comments at kos that aren’t actively typing their own.   These are people who can potentially be influenced and educated on (or simply reminded of) the actual facts.  It may be that the bot or hater in the argument is (at least at the moment of rapture) a lost cause… but the other folks reading can get the ‘false equivalency’ and ‘not really a bit operation’ points.

    Mighty fine meta, there, NPK.  Keep on keepin on.

    • deedogg on December 10, 2009 at 19:48

    I used to think it could be changed for the better.  Agree or not, I called myself trying to do that.  I have given up.

    All blogs have their own issues and their own “meta history”.  I post at one place that has several members that I am not really on speaking terms with.  And that is the main place I post!  You will not have total agreement on anything.  However, if administration allows a certain level of disagreement with in the rules of the site; and every one operates in good faith, a working blog relationship can be maintained.

    With that said there always exist those who will not operate in good faith.  All sites have seen them.  

  6. Now to the second dynamic, the “equivalency” argument.  We know Obama uses this a lot when he criticizes the “far” left and the far right.  We know that there is little “far left” in the USA these days and we also know that the damage done by the far right is simply not equivalent to any historical damage in the USA done by the far left.

    This I feel is what is largely what is wrong with the Left, that it can’t help but put itself down. It may be easier to say, that those people, are not left, they are liberals, or that those people are not liberals, they are conservatives.

    But I think look at MB’s post on learning how to criticize ourselves is an important point. I would just like to know what he is referring to. Because there seems to be plenty of self hating liberals who want to negotiate with themselves.

    They are the same people who choose to run away or compromise and take a beating in the name of Ghandi. Whether or not there is strength in that, is a separate issue. What I see it leading to is losses, political losses that effect people’s real lives and whether or not they will literally survive. There is little attempt to stand ground and fight and not LOSE. Because I don’t see it as much of a victory, and others like me who will go without health care after this bill is passed will probably agree.

    Is each side making it worse? No. I see one side enabling leadership which is leading to a high pitch on the part of some, and disappointment, withdrawal and apathy in others. OF the two, I may add, the angry, are the better in at least they are still holding on.  Both sides of the criticizers are not good indicators, necessarily, but I think their response is fairly inevitable given the situation. The side who is supporting leadership in bargaining away the base is guilty for making this happen. I do not see them owning up to it. Instead more blame on people who are having a natural reaction to it.  Certainly they don’t win full and substantial support that way.  

  7. Indeed I live in the dark ages!

    A guileless word is an absurdity. A smooth forehead betokens

    A hard heart. He who laughs

    Has not yet heard

    The terrible tidings.

    Ah, what an age it is

    When to speak of trees is almost a crime

    For it is a kind of silence about injustice!

    And he who walks calmly across the street,

    Is he not out of reach of his friends

    In trouble?

    . . .

    Live out your little time

    Fearing no one

    Using no violence

    Returning good for evil —

    Not fulfillment of desire but forgetfulness

    Passes for wisdom.

    I can do none of this:

    Indeed I live in the dark ages!

    . . .

    You, who shall emerge from the flood

    In which we are sinking,

    Think —

    When you speak of our weaknesses,

    Also of the dark time

    That brought them forth.

    . . .

    For we knew only too well:

    Even the hatred of squalor

    Makes the brow grow stern.

    Even anger against injustice

    Makes the voice grow harsh. Alas, we

    Who wished to lay the foundations of kindness

    Could not ourselves be kind.

    But you, when at last it comes to pass

    That man can help his fellow man,

    Do no judge us

    Too harshly.

  8. Meteor Blades has given the green light to hide rate anyone who uses the word “Obamabot” or “Obama hater.”

    I think this is a big mistake.

    the cavalier use of labels and finger-pointing?

    I think YOU’RE making a big mistake, unless you want to see the discourse there go farther to shit than it already has.

    Or am I misunderstanding you?

  9. see what purpose it serves other than to allow an avenue for further disruption.  I can’t remember the last time I gave an HR and it seems a bit childish.  It serves no purpose for me.    

    • TomP on December 10, 2009 at 21:00

    fall of Daily Kos.  The cult of personality deliberately created around Barack Obama drives everything.

    World capitalism is weaker now, so any anti-capitalist meovments, no matter how reformist, must be chanelled into uselesss activities.

    Build for the future.  Build unions.  Work on issues in your communities.

    MB, inadvertently I think, has let lose the dogs of war.  The troll rating wars soon will commence and the organzied Obama extremists will attempt a purge.  The problem is that Kos is not with them.  

    It is a long struggle.

    Obama’s election is a net good because it helps put a lie to racist strereotypes.  And we will have center-right policies with an occasional centrist or even left of center program.

    Build for the future.  

    So many activists have left Dkos.  

    The blogosphere is not static.  New places will arise to meet the needs of people.

    Here and firedoglake, digby, a few others are growing.      

    • TMC on December 10, 2009 at 21:12

    has not helped and the problem is far deeper than just calling each other names, although I do agree with your analysis for the difference between “bot” and “hater”. I also agree with you that just because there is a very carefully couched diary on the “wreck list” does mean that we are not frustrated by the attacks of these sociopaths, whose, if your look at their comment histories and responses to Obama policy critical diaries, only point is to insert their very nasty personal invective. mascot is the prime example and I suspect that he and a few of his cohorts are just waiting in the winds to pounce allover buhdydarma’s first diary there citing much of the exchanges here. These comments are up rated and then anyone who HR’s them becomes a target.

    The biggest problem is that those commenters, whose only purpose is to inflame, incite and insult are not moderated by the community or the administration of the site. The trolls do not care how counterproductive their incendiary commentary is, they are sociopaths who do not care and are being encouraged by their “friends” and ignored by the administrators.

  10. . . . Docudharma isn’t any “prettier” than other sites?  My mirror says otherwise!

    I can sympathize with ya there on takin’ the ball and goin’ home.  We all know those moderates in the McCain campaign were holdin’ me back, which is all wrong for a natural point guard like me, because I needed to control the ball and pass it off when I saw fit, which a point guard can’t to without the ball, and it’s not like the center is goin’ to pass the ball effectively, and bein’ the biggest girl on the team (the center I mean) could take the ball and go home, and what could the little point guard do about it without riskin’ her delicate features, and yet I’m the one accused of ball-takin’ just because I changed careers this summer.  It doesn’t make a bit of sense!

    But I have to stick up for the ol’ “bot” behavior there, because one thing they’re good for is buyin’ books.  I’m not sure they’re good for readin’ the books, or independent thought about the books, or learnin’ enough to write their own books, but once the checks clear that ain’t my problem.  How would our tabloid-style society function without sheep?      

    • kyledeb on December 10, 2009 at 21:35

    We’ve been dealing with being on the outs in the pro-migrant community for a long time.  This is a very valuable piece of writing for learning how to deal with that.

  11. truths that are so self evident they bear no critical examination.

    I am very familiar with the dynamic you talk about regarding “having no seat at the table” with regard to the LGBT issues I continually talked about (with few people listening, apparently) at Daily Kos.

    We are told, as LGBT people, that we have to join in coalitions to ensure our equal rights, by those who tell us, most assuredly that our rights are their rights and our freedoms are their freedoms.

    But I could have told you all this that is in your diary before most of the people who are styled as “Obama haters” were Obama haters.  Many times, they were on the same side as those who loved Obama and stuck up for him through thick and thin — until he crossed them somehow.

    To some degree I want to laugh at these realizations that to me come so late.  If you wanted to know how this will go you only had to look at the anger of the LGBT community about a year ago.  If we all on the “left of the left” (ha!) have no seat at the table now, we LGBT people had no seat at the table then.

    And so, I have been criticized quite often for the observation (often made only among fellows) that we LGBT people, if we want to truly secure our freedom and liberty may have to go it alone.  That there was no coalition possible with those who hold us in contempt or barely concealed patronization.  Those who sympathize have no interest in fighting for us, and those who are interested in fighting for or with us have no interest in doing it alone.

    And so, inasmuch as I have joined all you on the AK-47 toting Che Guevary postering far left (not really) it is with no little amusement that I read this post.  Those who object to being patronized and soothed to and assured that their rights are just as important to the patronizer and soother while that is demonstrably untrue via word and deed salute you.

    Do I have a point in making this observation?  yes, I suppose, but take it in context please.  I am one of you, but at the same time, LGBT with no illusions that you (by and large, there may be exceptions) care as deeply for my legal equality as I do for my own and my fellow LGBT people — if one objects to not having a seat at the table, one might also observe this is a power paradigm, and here in America, there is no little schadenfreude at always sticking it to the little guy.

    If you want to get noticed, you have to make a big noise far beyond your actual power and numbers.  Take it from a gay guy.

  12. I’m so broke I can’t afford .02, so, you simply get my thoughts.

    1) The damage of the Bush administration

    Yes, there were many… MANY… people who voted Republican that simply couldn’t stand by after 2004 and “look the other way” anymore.  Maybe it was the vilification of John Kerry.  Maybe it was the evidence that the Iraq war was based on lies.  Maybe it was the combination of all the crap.  But, these people made the conscious choice to work against the GOP in 2006 and 2008.

    That didn’t mean that we were suddenly Democrats, much less Liberals.  Politics to us took a backseat to fixing the messes of Bush.

    My very first Daily Kos diary in March 2007 laid out the argument of all that was wrong with the Bush years.

    We, and by “we” I’m talking about the Independent voters, gave Congress to the Dem’s in 2006.  It was we, again the Independent voters with many ex-GOP’rs this time, along, yes, with many first time voters, that swept the electoral votes to Obama and the Dem’s.

    In 2006, we were deluged with “we don’t have enough votes”, “we don’t have the Veto Pen”, “we only have a slight majority”, etc, etc.  In 2008, those excuses became just that; excuses.

    2) It started before “Obamabots”

    It was first “you are here to help us or you’re not” and if you were deemed to “not be helping”, the troll hunters came out.

    Then, it was the “Naderites lost us 2000” and anyone that didn’t demonize Nader was hunted down.

    Then it was anyone that questioned 9/11.

    Anyone who questioned the vote counting in 2000 or 2004.

    See the problem here?  They always had to have their “them” to demonize, regardless of facts. So, yes, it started long before Obama.

    3) The trouble with facts and truth

    We’ve seen that the GOP has no use for facts or truth, but, some of us looked to the Dem’s to have it.  Sadly, many on “the left” have no more use for facts or truth than their right-wing counterparts.

    As a person who voted Republican in the ’80’s and Dem in the 2000’s, I CAN say that with knowledge. Or, you can simply take the fact that Meteor Blades thinks it’s better to HR people using terms than the actual arguments being made.

    Which brings us to why DK went to hell…

    4) The desire to be seen as a “serious and political” website

    “Serious” people don’t create waves.  They don’t chase conspiracy theories no matter how much evidence comes out later.  They don’t allow the site to be seen in “disarray” or as “divided”.

    It became the “conventional wisdom” point for the left and the more “serious” it became, the less tolerant it became.

    Now, it is seen nationally as a “force”.  It obtained its goal of electing more Dem’s.  And, those Dem’s have failed America.

    In conclusion, I don’t care how they run that site.  They can ban everyone not like them or try and HR them into oblivion.  I don’t care.  I DO care about the truth.  Which, unfortunately, it seems only the group here at DD (and some other blogs) care about.  So, in that regard, I DO see DD as being the better blog.

  13. I don’t want to see the GOP’ers regain the WH and the Congress–though, as many of us have said:  The Democrats have amazingly done little to nothing with their majority in Congress and with the WH.  It seems that the bushies are still running things.  

    But, the thought of a Palin presidency or Bachman being Speaker of the House or some other nightmarish outcome of a GOP’er victory in the next election is sickening also.

    OTOH:  I’m disgusted and fed-up with being disrespected, ignored, and/or insulted by the Dems like Rahm, et al.  I’m tired of being taken for granted, tired of the Dems assuming that just because people (mainly the far lefties they now ridicule) organized and volunteered and donated $$$’s to get them elected, that they will do so again and the Dems don’t have to give back a damn thing to earn it.

    It’s pretty hard to work up any enthusiasm to lift a finger to help any of the jerks stay in power.

  14. I just love this quote, I’ve been meditating on it for a few days now and thought it bears on your essay.

    For though we love both the truth and our friends, piety requires us to honor the truth first.

    Aristotle

    Thats where Im headed Truth, dunno where that is sometimes but I’m always looking

  15. after having spent the last few hours with my mind spinning in horror in the comment section of a diary about DOJ latest legal maneuvers, to block any court action against John Yoo. This legal action invalidates presidents  established at Nirenberg. The comments went beyond being name calling, name calling has nothing to do with whats at stake here, including the names Democratic or Republican. The equivalency of hurting with names we call each other, cannot hide the damage done by the sticks and stones we use to break bodies with torture and killing. This herd is in a stampede mode, they have lost any semblance of their humanity under the guise of politics and tactics. No win is worth this.

    The rules on name calling are meaningless and they diminish the damage to not only to our political system but to the people involved in defending or arguing the inarguable in terms of politics or party or even winning and losing. I cannot accept terms of engagement that place importance on names that have nothing to do with what is happening to the world and the  to our humanity not to mention our laws. When we argue over the importance of support for a pol and our love or hate of a pol rather then what we allowed our country become and are continuing it is not only irrelevant but the heart of the problem.

    The change is among the citizens who proclaim to be politically engaged and support the Democratic party to govern and uphold the laws, is way more terrifying then any bamboozle their Messiah engages in. Hard to put in words on how strongly I feel when i read what is defended and justified as support for a man who is a just a pol, they helped elect. Some issues go beyond this and when all our debate boils down to positions on the spectrum of love and hate for a pol and his support is demanded, we become not even Democrats ot Republicans but Good Germans.                                

  16. As Kestrel said above, I think the recent discussions about dKos are a serious mistake.  There used to be a rule that such discussions weren’t to be undertaken here.  But now, as K pointed out, there are so many exceptions…  So we’re spending a lot of time here discussing events at dKos, and related topics.

    I wish we weren’t doing that.  Those who want to discuss dKos  can discuss it over there.  Bringing it in here, it seems to me, spreads the argument, inflames it, prolongs it, perpetuates it.  I’d like it to stop.  I’d like to ignore here what I see as the ultimate destruction of dKos by its occupants and its being relegated to utter irrelevance.  It’s becoming just another game.  But I also note that when the argument spills over in dd (and elsewhere) it feels a lot to me like the ripples a friend’s divorce makes in your own relationship(s).

    Similarly, I wish we could stop talking about other bloggers in discussions in which they are not present.  That to me feels a lot like a form of gossip.

    I guess what I’m saying is that blogging HERE about dKos and the various people who post there is a really unappealing direction for dd to take.  It’s meta about somebody else’s world.  I hope we’ll stop it soon.

    • banger on December 10, 2009 at 23:51

    DKOS is a Democratic Party site. The party wants to impose discipline as it probably should so let them. Just turn the page and move on.

    But this site is different. It is for those who are searching and researching — who are genuinely interested in change. In blogging things go very fast and thought never gets very deep so trouble is bound to come when we comment without organizing our thoughts effectively or just on the basis of a momentary emotion. I like the free-form nature of blogging but perhaps we should start practicing a little more thoughtfulness.

    Anyway, about DKOS — why don’t you just forget about it? so many of you are so broken-hearted because you still don’t quite grasp the essence of politics. If you have the muscle you get what you want. If you choose not to have muscles then don’t play. No player (I lived in the DC area for nearly 25 years and political operatives on all sides are “players”) is going to think anything of you if you tell them “do what is right and reasonable” because they’ll laugh for hours and your stupidity. If you tell them that if they do what you want they will benefit in very particular ways then you can play with them. Also you have to be able to say to the players that if they don’t do what you want them to do you’ll hurt them. That is the way things are done — that’s it, end of story. Why is this so hard to understand? Why do so many here insist that politicians/players should do the right thing? You think they don’t know? You think they can’t compare our HC system with all the others in the world? Yes, they can make the analysis. Do you think they don’t know that the reasons for the war in Afghanistan is actually what the government says?

    But no one will cover their behinds if they do the right thing — they’ll only be hurt and their lives ruined. Our problem collectively is we don’t understand that we have to organize and hang together and then do something that earns the respect of the players. Simple as that. They’re reasonable men and women — I’ve known many of them and would be happy to push a progressive agenda (as long as it’s not called that, I suppose). As long as they know they are dealing with people that are willing to play the game of power. That’s the currency being traded in Washington. If you don’t have it, go home. There is no possibility of Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, absolutely no possibility — though it’s a wonderful and sophisticated movie in so many ways.

    • sharon on December 11, 2009 at 00:47

    that it is inescapable even with the insane amount of work i have to get done before the end of next week.  i find myself thinking about it as i walk to and from school.  i wondered today how they would get through the extremist haze.  this recent edict does not bode well.  it tells me they are as stumped as i am.  and it is a mess destined to get messier.  i don’t have the time to comment substantively here or there, but i read to relieve the stress (??? i know, what?? but you try cutting out letter shapes from foamcore with an xacto knife for four hours) when i get to a certain levels of completion in a project.  people are so wedded to their pov’s that they don’t even realize their bias.  i am amazed that mb and kos don’t see that.  

    npk, i agree entirely about the false equivalency and while pondering what they could do, i considered this course and rejected it for specifically this reason.  it is about silencing criticism and requesting blind fealty.  it is suggesting that the emotional is equal to the analytic.  maybe they think that it will bring down the level of hysteria.  i doubt it.  i saw someone hr expatjourno for foul language because s/he included stfu in a comment heading.  so how long will it take before this edict is misinterpreted and extended to wherever the emotional pitch takes it.

  17. to be governed by a political infrastructure that was designed in the 1770’s and 1780’s. It has evolved for the good without question, but technology has sped ahead of our abilities to deal with it.

    If I recall, the term is “Cultural Lag”. And as the Self Contained Nation State dissolves into the Golbal Economy, with all its implications, the economic and political fracturing of the Nation State will be profound. This happened oh so fast, and we may be dealing with dynamics that are totally unaffected by traditional politics.

    And the politicization of the internet is a part of this dynamic. We all know about the traditional media, but blogging is brand new. I think it can have tremendous power, but it will take time to go beyond raising money and organizing. As the traditional media collapses, the blogosphere will fill a lot of the void.

    How that happens is anyone’s guess. I was never attached to Walter Cronkite and I can’t imagine lamenting the change in a popular blog. I know it’s interactive and everything, but that isn’t authentic dialogue. It can never be, because it lacks semiotic and gestural depth (among other things).

    However, it has its creative and intellectual niche.

    And this is a great discussion to figure out how to fill it with a positive political agenda. As far as recs, tips, hide rates etc. I really don’t know. I recognize moderation to be critical, but that’s tricky too.

    The only other site that I commented a lot on before Dkos was a science site in England. It was great, but there were no frills.

    I can’t believe I have to stop now. When my wife yells to help with dinner, the world stops. I had a lot more to say, but oh well————————-

    • Miep on December 11, 2009 at 03:39

    is not to say it’s perfect. I did so only as a reaction to the endless discussion of the OTHER blog we get into here.

    We should have our own identity, and feel positive about it.

    Obamabots vs. Obama-haters…well, that’s just silly. It’s not a proper dichotomy. People who refuse to countenance criticism of elected officials, vs. people who understand the importance of feeling comfortable doing so, is more like it. half one and half the other is not an “acceptable compromise.”

    • quince on December 11, 2009 at 15:52

    Every week I see less and less of you. Every week the hatred for people critical of policy grows nastier and nastier and nastier.

    Some days I’m starting to feel like I stand alone on dkos, and its demoralizing. You’ve all retreated to here, and left us to fend for ourselves. We’re losing.

    Every policy point is responded to with screams of teabagger at me. Right now there’s a diary on the top of the rec list calling us right wingers.

    And you guys have mostly retreated to here. I can’t blame you I guess, but it sure makes me sad.

    • TMC on December 11, 2009 at 17:58

    who is challenging him. He has no control over this now. BTW, I can see you but I think you know that. I can see him too. I’m like ek around at all odd hours

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