Tag: Iran

Gotta Love those Guys at JustForeignPolicy.org

cross-posted at Iran thru Open Eyes

Here’s what came over the transom today from Robert Naiman and others at JustForeignPolicy, the gang that, I hope, will kick ass and take names as the Bushcons are ushered out the back door:

Recently we’ve seen an escalation of threats to attack Iran. In the New Yorker, Seymour Hersh reported that Congressional leaders agreed last year to fund a major escalation of covert operations against Iran. (1) The House of Representatives is currently considering a resolution promoted by AIPAC that would effectively demand a blockade against Iran. (2) This resolution has over 200 co-sponsors, although a surge of opposition has prevented it from being passed so far.

Here’s what those promoting military attacks and blockades on Iran don’t want Americans to know: there’s an offer on the table that could resolve the dispute over Iran’s nuclear program and allow both sides to claim victory.

Help us spread the word by watching and forwarding this video, in which former US Ambassador to the United Nations Thomas Pickering makes the case for talks with Iran, without pre-conditions, on multilateral uranium enrichment in Iran:

http://www.justforeignpolicy.o…

The Iranian People Lose Again

This morning, July 5, 2008, the CASMII website posted this extraordinary essay by Michel Chossudovsky/Global Research:

Iran: War or Privatization: All Out War or “Economic Conquest”?

Another way of saying it:  Is Iran’s chance for democratic self-government gone the way of the overthrow of Mossadeqh, absent only a Roosevelt tossing money at thugs?

In broad strokes, Chossudovsky opens the multiple Russian dolls:  at first blush, it appears that Tehran’s agreement to sell off state owned assets to foreign investors might be the ruling regime’s bid to stave off an American-Israeli war and maintain power by placating the US-Israel-WTO-IMF cabal. Although Tehran does insist on Iranian ownership of at least 65% of any privitazed assets sold to foreign entities, shares are still at rock-bottom prices, a bell that cannot but cause voracious dogs like Carlyle Group to salivate to the point of drowning in their own drool.

But Chossudovsky keeps pulling wooden dolls out of the box:  H Con Res 362 signals that

Washington has no interest in the imposition of a privatization program on Iran, as an “alternative” to an all out war. In fact quite the opposite. There are indications that the Bush adminstration’s main objective is to stall the privatization program.

Rather than being applauded by Washington as a move in the right direction, Tehran’s privatization program coincides with the launching (May 2008) of a far-reaching resolution in the US Congress (H.CON. RES 362), calling for the imposition of Worldwide financial sanctions directed against Iran:

~~~~

Little bit of background: My interest in Iran took a turn toward alarm after I heard Patrick Clawson deliver a speech to an audience organized by the United Jewish Federation of Pittsburgh.  The flier advertising the speech shocked me:  a flame-colored mushroom cloud on a black field, with the block letters: Nuclear Iran: A Threat to Humanity jabbing off the page to spear readers.

Clawson’s talk was the kick-off event of UJF’s Iran Task Force, whose goal was to “inform Pittsburghers” of the threat Iran posed to the world; to support legislation working its way through the Pennsylvania State legislature that would permit divestment of Teachers’ and State Employees’ pension funds from corporations doing business with Iran; and to advocate for further divestment from Iran.

Although UJF’s Iran Task Force billed itself as an “interfaith alliance,” a list obtained from the Task Force’s administrator included these groups:

~American Israel Public Affairs Committee

~Anti-Defamation League

~Bnai Zion, Pittsburgh Region

~Community & Public Affairs Council of the United Jewish Federation

~Friends of Israel

~Greater Pittsburgh Rabbinic Association

~Hadassah, Greater Pittsburgh Chapter

~Holocaust Center of the United Jewish Federation

~Pittsburgh Persian Gulf Initiative

~Pittsburgh Chapter American Jewish Committee

~Scholars for Peace in the Middle East*

~Zionist Organization of America, Pittsburgh District

To be fair, Clawson was introduced by an African American Christian pastor whose contact information was only a PO Box.

Otherwise, the definition of “interfaith” as applied to the list of sponsors of the Iran Task Force has a meaning I am not acquainted with.

The goal of UJF’s Iran Task Force is to encourage

Terror-Free investment options, offered by Wall Street’s best firms, {that} exclude foreign companies conducting business with Iran, North Korea, Sudan and Syria while ensuring high-yield returns.

Plagued by insufficient internal investment and technology, these rogue regimes rely on foreign companies to prop-up their struggling economies, thus allowing these governments to maintain business as usual – ignoring the welfare of their people and sponsoring global terrorism.  Investing Terror-Free allows all of us to say “not with my money.”

Inspired by similar campaigns that shut down South African apartheid…

The Pittsburgh Persian Gulf Initiative, invites exploration.  PPGI (which has since changed its name) is a brand new alliance established by persons affiliated with Greycourt & Co. Inc. whose mission is

Greycourt advises clients who range in size from approximately $25 million in investable assets to a number of Forbes 400 families.

 Hey, everybody’s gotta make a living.

Sidebar: * letter from Scholars for Peace: Jews created democracy or something; NO: quote Jefferson.

Gregory Friedman, chief investment officer for Greycourt, included this slide in a 2007 Powerpoint presentation for Greycourt:

Broader Opportunity Set…

Global Rank  Company Name  Country  Capitalization %

3 China Mobile Ltd.       HONG KONG         0.82%

5 Gazprom OAO             RUSSIA            0.79%

8 BP PLC                  UNITED KINGDOM    0.52%

10 Petroleo Brasileiro S/A BRAZIL            0.49%

11 Electricite de France   FRANCE            0.49%

12 Toyota Motor Corp.      JAPAN0            0.49%

13 Vodafone Group PLC      UNITED KINGDOM    0.48%

14 HSBC Holdings PLC       UNITED KINGDOM    0.47%

16 China Construction Bank Corp.CHINA        0.46%

18 Total S.A.              FRANCE            0.46%

Total Non-US Based in Top 20 Non-US          5.48%

Total US-based in Top 20 United States       6.30%

Here is a list of firms UJF Pittsburgh advises the Pennsylvania State Teachers’ Pension fund and the Pennsylvania State Employees’ Pension fund to divest:

Gazprom

Petrobras

Total SA

Royal Dutch Shell *

China in general,

The key obstacle to stronger international pressure against Tehran has been China, Iran’s largest trading partner. After the Iranian government refused to comply with two U.N. Security Council resolutions dealing with its nuclear program, Beijing balked at a U.S. proposal for a resolution that would have sanctioned the Revolutionary Guard, U.S. officials said.

and these Chinese corporations in particular:

China National Petroleum Corp.

China National Offshore Oil Corp.

China Petroleum & Chemical Corp.

* Royal Dutch Shell: According to research completed by Trita Parsi

On slide #19, Friedman advises:

Inefficiently traded markets offer ample opportunity for skillful managers to generate excess returns.

Watch out for potentially adverse legal systems, capital controls and insider control.

George Soros comment, __________

A new venture, PPGI kicked off its establishment by sponsoring a talk in Pittsburgh by author Azar Nafisi, whose controversial book, “Reading Lolita in Tehran,” was underwritten by the

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Back to Michel Chossodosky’s nested Russian dolls:

The largest foreign investors in Iran are China and Russia.

While US companies are notoriously absent from the list of foreign direct investors, Germany, Italy and Japan have significant investment interests in oil and gas, the petrochemical industry, power generation and construction as well as in banking. Together with China and Russia, they are the main beneficiaries of the privatization program.

One of the main objectives of the proposed economic sanctions under H. RES CON 362 is to prevent foreign companies (including those from the European Union and Japan) , from acquiring a greater stake in the Iranian economy under Tehran’s divestment program.

Other countries with major foreign investment interests in Iran include France, India, Norway, South Korea, Sweden and Switzerland. Sweden’s Svedala Industri has major interests in Iran’s copper mines.

UJF’s divestment program includes thes Japanese, French, Indian, Norwegian, South Korean, Swedish, and Swiss firms:

INPEX: The Japanese market accounts for 22 percent of Iran’s oil exports which account for 85 percent of Japan’s total oil imports. The Tokyo-based INPEX, which is part-owned by the Japanese government, has billions of dollars invested in many Iranian oil projects including the Soroosh, Nowrooz and Azadegan oil fields.

Alcatel SA: French telecommunications giant Alcatel, has signed numerous multimillion dollar contracts deals with Iran as well as Sudan over the past five years. Alcatel supplies Iran with most of its telecommunications facilities, high-speed Internet service and communication devices and infrastructure for offshore oil and gas platforms.

ONGC: India’s Oil and Natural gas Company (ONGC) signed a $40 billion deal with Iran in 2005 to import millions of tons of liquid gas. ONGC is involved in many lucrative exploration projects in Iran and is on the verge of signing a deal in the South Pars oilfields valued at over $100 million.

Norsk Hydro: Norsk Hydro is Norway’s second largest energy company and is partially owned by the Norwegian government. Norsk Hydro has massive investments in Iranian oil projects including a $107 million contract signed with Iran last year.

Hyundai: South Korea’s Hyundai supports Iran by supplying it with energy-related construction and development help, manufacturing components and ship maintenance. Among its other mega-deals with Iran, Hyundai recently signed a $1 billion contract along with Daewoo to build oil tankers for the regime.

and

LG Engineering and Construction Co.: In 2002, South Korea’s LG Engineering and Construction Co. signed a $1.6 billion deal for a gas processing plant project in the South Pars gas fields. The company has a 45.3 stake in the deal that allows it to claim $700 million of the total project cost.

1.Neville Chamberlain: who will take the role of Chamberlain? see Legacy of Ashes

2. Clawson: Iran has no friends. PHOTO OF FLAGS. the problem, Iran has many friends, but most of them are not the US and Israel.  Iran is the beautiful, wealthy, eligible young person in town whose father guards her virtue with a shotgun and who remembers a slight and doesn’t invite those who have insulted him to the party.  And carrot cake is not on the menu.

3. Greycourt is a Carlyle Group wannabe. How does Carlyle operate?  see video: government information at the highest level, including making things happen in the absence of naturally occuring phenomenon — see Victorian Holocausts.

Is this moral?  in the world of Bob Kagan, yes. the curious morality of James Glassman.

America does not share that value system.

Just Foreign Policy vs U.S. State Department Office of Propaganda

Yesterday, July 3, 2008, Robert Naiman of JustForeignPolicy.org posted a diary on DailyKos that meshed nicely with Jeffersons Bible’s essay, “Ignorance, Not Iran, Is the Enemy.”

Titled, “A Decent Respect for the Opinions of Mankind: Iran Literacy Quiz,” Naiman’s diary challenged readers to answer 11 questions about Iran, in these broad categories:

A. Have Iran’s leaders acted or declared their intentions to acquire nuclear weapons, arm and train Al Qaeda, destroy Israel, or “demand that God not inscribe the Zionist entity in the Book of Life.

B. Regarding nuclear weapons/nuclear enrichment, have Iran’s leaders declared that nuclear weapons are contrary to Islam; has Iran ever offered to negotiate nuclear matters with the West; do most Iranians support the notion that it is important for Iran to enrich uranium and reject the idea that Iran should pursue nuclear weapons?  

C. Who has what power in Iran’s government?

D. How has the U.S. behaved toward Iran in the past, were those behaviours legal or productive, and how is the U.S. behaving toward Iran today?  

Spoiler Alert:According to Naiman, here’s how Iran literati answer these questions:

A. Iran has repeatedly declared that it does NOT wish to develop nuclear weapons; there is no evidence that Iran trains Al Qaeda, rather, that would be contrary to Iran’s allegiances; Iran has never said it would attack Israel, other than in the event Israel attacks Iran first; and the stuff about the Book of Life is nonsense. In other words, all Category A. questions are correctly answered, False.

B.  All Category B. questions are correctly answered, True.

C.  In Iran’s complex governing system, Supreme Leader Khameini has ultimate power and authority over most decisions, including military and nuclear matters.  President Ahmadinejad does NOT have such power and authority.

D. Naiman summarised this complex category by referencing several short videos. His words are worth quoting, particularly since they contain an action item:

 10.  In 1953, the democratic government of Iran was overthrown in a coup organized by the US Central Intelligence Agency, after Iran’s parliament voted to nationalize the country’s oil sector, angering the British (cf. “jackboot,” above) who responded to the Iranian parliament’s action by imposing a naval blockade of the country to prevent it from exporting oil; just as today Representative Ackerman’s House Concurrent Resolution 362 seeks to prevent Iran from importing gas by “imposing stringent inspection requirements on all persons, vehicles, ships, planes, trains, and cargo entering or departing Iran,” suggesting a blockade, an act of war.  

   True

   False

True. On the US role in the coup, see, among others, the book by Stephen Kinzer; a short video tells the story here. The text of Ackerman’s resolution can be found [ here.] You can ask your Representative to oppose it here.

About a dozen people took Naiman’s quiz and posted their results in a poll; most respondants answered at least 85% of the questions accurately.

Take the leap:

“Ignorance, Not Iran, Is the Enemy”

       Last weekend, June 28 and 29, 2008, over 300 people representing anti-war groups including A.N.S.W.E.R, Troops Out Now Coalition, United for Peace and Justice, U.S. Labor Against the War, StopWarOnIran, American Friends Service Committee, and CASMII, the Campaign Against Sanctions and Military Intervention in Iran, met in Cleveland, Ohio, under the auspices of the National Assembly to End the Iraq War and Occupation.

The main goal of the National Assembly Conference was to unify the various coalition members around common Resolutions and coordinated plans for Actions throughout the nation to demand the immediate withdrawal of all US forces from Iraq.

Concerned that the ongoing drumbeat urging war against Iran might not be appropriately countered by anti-war activists, CASMII-USA President Rostam Pourzal and Phil Wilayto, publisher of the Richmond Defender drafted a Resolution urging that National Assembly include in its goals that of preventing an attack on Iran.

Behind the banner, Ignorance, Not Iran, Is the Enemy, Pourzal and Wilayto, who are both members of VAWN, Virginia Anti-War Network, conducted a workshop laying out arguments why a military attack on Iran, Sanctions on Iran, and interference in Iran’s internal affairs should be opposed by anti-war activists.

Rostam Pourzal answered the main U.S. lies – that Iran is attempting to develop nuclear weapons, that it is a military threat to the United States and Israel, that it sponsors terrorism, and that it is a source of instability in Iraq.

Wilayto discussed the urgency of including the Iran Resolution in the actions of the National Assembly, since it is

the only major anti-war planning event taking place this election year…{and it} brought together representatives of national coalitions that seldom work together.

Pourzal, Wilayto, and this diarist attended the Conference motivated by

concern that the Bush administration might misread the conference’s focus on bringing troops back from Iraq as indifference in the anti-war movement regarding an attack on Iran. There was no lack of concern among the conference participants or organizers about aggression against Iran.

Pourzal presented the Iran Resolution to the Conferees on Sunday morning.   The CASMII/Defenders Iran Resolution was one of several Iran resolutions put before the body; others were less desirable in that they called for      acts of protest onlyafter harmful actions had been initiated against Iran. Advocates for those Resolutions graciously agreed to cede their draft resolution and support the CASMII/Defenders Iran Resolution, namely:

demand that the National Assembly declare its unequivocal opposition to:

(1) any military attack on Iran, by the U.S., Israel, or any other country acting at the behest of the U.S.;

(2) the imposition or continuation of sanctions, whether economic or military, against Iran; and

(3) any attempt by the U.S. government or any of its agencies to interfere with or influence the internal political process in Iran

In a floor debate Iran Resolution advocates requested that the National Assembly

incorporate these demands into any future protests…and officially agree that copies of the resolution on Iran be included with any press release about the results of the conference.

Consistent with the finding that

some 70 percent of the people of the United States favor withdrawal from Iraq,

National Assembly conferees voted overwhelmingly to adopt the Iran Resolution as proposed by CASMII/Defenders.

Close observers of the U.S.–Israel–Iran debacle reflect that,

George Bush has less than seven months before he leaves the White House. So the window of opportunity for an attack on Iran by the US or Israel is closing. Some in the anti-war movement may feel that the threat of a new war is remote. But the month of August has in the past presented an attractive time frame for the U.S. government to implement unpopular policies. Congress is not in session in August and students are dispersed, as are many working people. The anti-war movement itself is in a less active mode in mid to late summer, with many of activists taking time off for needed rest.

TAKE ACTION

Yesterday, in a diary titled,  Stop War On Iran, Aug. 2 An Emergency Call to Actionactioncenter brought to the attention of the DailyKos community one of many Stop War on Iran Mass Marches planned for August 2, 2008.

We believe that the possibility of an attack on Iran is credible and serious. Please strengthen opposition to war with your participation

in actions already organized in your community, or contact CASMII USA, or StopWarOnIran or your local Obama Campaign headquarters for assistance in organizing your own march on August 2, 2008.

IGNORANCE IS THE ENEMY. Educate yourself.

But if you CAN’T participate in a protest march to Stop War on Iran on August 2, at least seek to inform yourself and your friends and neighbors of the history of U.S.–Iran relations, find out what Iran is really like, and prepare yourself to talk back to the campaign of demonization that is being foisted on the American people, just like the campaign of lies and fearmongering that preceded our invasion of Iraq.  

One invaluable source of sound information about the Iran–U.S. relationship can be found in The Teaching Company’s lecture series, The United States and the Middle East: 1914 to 9/11, taught by Professor Salim Yaqub of the University of Chicago.  If your local library does not have the series, request them to acquire it; if your book club chooses to purchase it, find it here.  I found it worthwhile to pay the extra money for the DVD version, because it was helpful to follow the action on maps that Prof. Yaqub displayed.

And to get a flavor of the Iranian heart and soul, read Dr. Fatemeh Keshavarz’s Jasmine and Stars: Reading More Than Lolita in Tehran

Can we the people stop war on Iran?

Yes, We Can

Fuel for Doubt on Attack on Iran

(Crossposted at DKOS)

In today’s WaPo David Ignatius wrote an important column. Ignatius is probably the best-connected commentator on the subject of the Middle East and reflects official thinking in Washington. When the Neocons were in their glory he wrote admiringly of them; recently he has distanced himself considerably.

First he indicates that the intelligence operations are not run well.

But according to knowledgeable sources, this effort shares the defect of broader U.S. policy toward Iran — it is tentative and ill-coordinated, and it undermines diplomacy without bringing serious pressure on the regime.

AND

Argues a former intelligence official, “It’s a PowerPoint covert-action program. It looks aggressive, but it’s not a tied-together, long-term strategy that would make Iran change its policy.”

The money quote comes at the end of the column:

But so far, that argument for a rollback of Iranian power hasn’t prevailed inside a divided administration.

Finally, he indicates that any change in U.S. policy will wait the next administration:

The Iran question will confront the next administration from Day One, and the basic options probably won’t look very different from the current set: Talk or fight, or do something in between?

This column may be a slender thread but it is realistic to assume, having followed and corresponded (when he wasn’t getting so many Emails) with Ignatius for many years, that he reflects more or less where the dominant forces in the power-elite are. Furthermore, there has been almost no call for attack (outside of the radical right) for an attack on Iran in the MSM. The idea has gotten no traction and is ulikely to because, frankly, there’s too much money to be lost by the power-elite particularly the Financial/Banking community who still rule the roost, they trump AIPAC and the Likud/Neocon alliance.

It is possible that this column is just a ploy to downplay speculation but Ignatius isn’t like that–in the den of thieves that is official Washington he is honest in my view.

This is not a drill, kiddies.

Crossposted from WWL, The Wild Wild Left, my wee blog! ๐Ÿ™‚

Put your head under your desk in the cover position.



Anyone who hasn’t read Seymour Hersh’s “Preparing the Battlefield” may wish to do so before kissing their ass goodbye under said desk.

Or give a listen to “Fresh Air.”


Fresh Air from WHYY, June 30, 2008 ยท Investigative journalist Seymour Hersh believes that the United States may be closer to armed conflict with Iran than previously imagined. He writes about Congress’ funding of covert military operations in the upcoming issue of The New Yorker.

A regular contributor to The New Yorker, Hersh exposed the Abu Ghraib prison scandal in a series of articles published in the magazine early in 2005.

During the Vietnam War, Hersh was the first to report on the My Lai massacre. He has been the recipient of the Pulitzer Prize, five George Polk Awards, two National Magazine Awards, and a dozen other prizes. He is also the author of eight books, including Chain of Command about Abu Ghraib.

Might be the most important 44 minutes of your life.

Liberal Media Bias? Are we REALLY getting ready to attack Iran?

The Peoples Republic of CNN reports today that the Bush Administration is running a whole lot of covert operations inside Iran in order to prepare the battlefield for an attack against their nuclear facilities while really trying to make trouble for the current regime in Iran.  

My guess is that the real reasoning has nothing at all to do with nuclear anything, but has much more to do with the fact that the current regime in Iran isn’t very friendly to Exxon-Mobil, British Petroleum, Shell Oil, etc, etc.  I think that the entire situation emanating from BushCo regarding Iran is all about regime change due to oil.  The continuation of the War On Terror For Oil, if you will.

Hey, call me silly, but it could be true!  ๐Ÿ˜‰

Nuremberg & Shifting Rationales for War against Iran

The germ of this essay was posted as a Comment to Truong Son Traveler’s diary on DailyKos, “The Truth About the Iranian Threat,” which TST also posted on Docudharma.  

Principle VI of the Nuremberg Principles appears to make even the formation of a Resolution such as HRes 362 a criminal act “against peace.” The thrust of the ambiguously-worded HRes 362 seems to be to provide legislative cover for acts of war against Iran. HRes 362 discusses what is to be done about Iran, increasingly demonized as a “Threat to Humanity.”  But why Iran should be held subject to punishment is not yet clear; judgment has been rendered and punishments spelled out, but no criminal act on Iran’s part has as yet been named.

In much the same fashion as the US invasion of Iraq was rolled out on the American stage through shifting rationales and propagandized demonization campaigns, so the “Shock Doctrine” is being prepared for Iran, under similar shifting rationales concealed by similar demonizing rhetoric. I’m not a lawyer or a legal scholar; it just seems to make sense to me that the reasons for unleashing such destabilization, death, and destruction can make all the difference in an assessment of their morality and legality.

 

The Truth About the Iranian Threat

There is another voice calling out the US establishment media on their less than truthful portrayal of a threat from Iran. While at it, Kaveh L Afrasiabi, writing for Asia Times Online cites UN secretary general Ban Ki-moon for having repeatedly condemned Iranian President Mahmud Ahmadinejad’s rhetoric against Israel, while remaining “ominously, and inexcusably, silent” about on Israeli threats of military attacks on Iran.

Unfortunately, compounding the UN’s shortcoming above-cited is a related failure of mainstream media in the US and Europe to criticize Ban’s flawed approach to the Iran crisis, or to address the systematic disinformation and planned paranoia about Iran’s nuclear program put forth by Israel and its allies.

Of particularly important significance in this affair is the fact that the head of the IAEA, (International Atomic Energy Agency) Mohammed ElBaradei, has stated that if a military attack is launched against Iran that he would resign immediately and that such an attack would inflict serious civilian casualties and “trigger the volatile region into a fireball.”

Meanwhile, back in Iran: Israel Prodding US to Attack Iran

CBS is reporting that Israel is pressuring the Bush administration to attack Iran: (emphasis mine)

“…Joint Chiefs Chairman Admiral Mike Mullen leaves Tuesday night on an overseas trip that will take him to Israel, reports CBS News national security correspondent David Martin. The trip has been scheduled for some time but U.S. officials say it comes just as the Israelis are mounting a full court press to get the Bush administration to strike Iran’s nuclear complex.

“CBS consultant Michael Oren says Israel doesn’t want to wait for a new administration….

More Below the Fold:

Bomb, Bomb, Iran? ;NY Times: “U.S. Says Exercise by Israel Seemed Directed at Iran”

Well, we all remember McCain’s rendition of “‘Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran.”


“McCain began his answer by changing the words to a popular Beach Boys song,” the Georgetown Times reports.

“‘Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran,’ he sang to the tune of Barbara Ann,” the paper notes.

Unplugged McCain sings ‘bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran’

Today, the New York Times reports that the military exercise Israel performed a few weeks ago looks like a “rehearsal for a potential bombing attack on Iran’s nuclear facilities.”

More tidings of possible war, and why Obama, while perhaps not perfect,  is far better than McCain on this, after the fold.  

As American as Apple Pie

The whole keffiyeh kerfuffle over Rachael Ray’s Dunkin Donuts ad set off a dKos thread (very humorous) that included someone writing about wanting their apple pastries.

Of course we all know that apples aren’t native to the western hemisphere–if they were, Johnny Appleseed would have had to find another line of work.  But where are they from?

Biblical references are often ascribed to pomegranates rather than true apples.  But that might be wrong.  Wikipedia points out that one problem with assuming the ancients meant the apple as we know it today is:

Apples appear in many religious traditions, often as a mystical or forbidden fruit. One of the problems identifying apples in religion, mythology and folktales is that the word “apple” was used as a generic term for all (foreign) fruit, other than berries but including nuts, as late as the 17th C. CE.;[6] For instance, in Greek mythology, the Greek hero Heracles, as a part of his Twelve Labours, was required to travel to the Garden of the Hesperides and pick the golden apples off the Tree of Life growing at its center.[9][10][11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A…

Load more